Archived Messages from
Wed. Oct. 11, 2000 to Sat. Nov 4, 2000
An anguished cry pierces the stark silence of the notebook
........CHRISTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII, CHRISTIIIIIIIIIIII, WHERE THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOU CHRISTII?
............
then the silence returns thicker, heavier and more lonely than before.
MARK: Well said.
HOWARD: That I love you goes without saying.
MARY: I applaud your decision.
RHODA: I appluad what you wrote.
GARY: I appluad what you wrote.
HEATHER: I appluad what you wrote.
And if you're all wondering why I'm appluading so mych it's because I've gone insane and I'm circling the room appluading. My tongue is lolling out and I'm dribbling but every now and then I manage to tap out a few lines on the keyboard.
MARK: I agree with you absolutely.
:-)
MARY -- erotica or pornography -- by definition, both have an intention of arousing sexual desire. Erotica (from eros) was always *art* with an intention, and pornographia was always photography (porno + graph = prostitute + picture). From the beginning, erotica had an upper class fragrance and pornographia had a lower class smell. The intent of both was equal.
Yes, there are steamy scenes in many good works and there are clinical photographs. The distinction for me is intention. Explore or Exploit. I have no trouble with stuff that explores sexuality. Even good works can be mishandled, though. I have to admit that at 15 or 16 years of age I was not ready to appreciate the literate craftsmanship of "Fanny Hill." During a few weeks of 10th grade, I carried "Fanny" from class to class and read it during school. Believe me, I entirely missed DeFoe's purpose in the book and his tireless use of passive voice.
GARIESS -- Yup. "Monkey's Paw" works in passive. Now: Why?
RHODA: The little snippet I sent is an excerpt from a much larger piece, so it is a little hard to tell that the rest is much more graphic than what I posted, and although there (unbelievably enough) is a plot...was definitely erotica. I agree with you about modern day love scenes in some romances. That is why it surprises me a little that you would think erotica and pornography are the same thing.
Some of the porn in the magazine I was considering was softer than some of what Brenda Joyce has to say. But she will catch no flack or disrespect for writing it. And geez, please dont get me wrong...if I thought that writing some of the smut I have seen out there is a respectable job, I wouldn't have been dragging my feet so much about taking that position to begin with.
The best statement I have seen thus far about the "is it erotica or is it pornography" topic is what Gariess said. They both serve the same purpose, and you know it when you see it. But still.....in my mind....erotica is a storyline that has really hot sex in it.....pornography is just graphic(and usually lame) descriptions of sex(the plot comes second...mainly as an excuse to write the thing in the first place). I am no expert, that is just my opinion.
I think what I said earlier in my post might be misconstrued as meaning that I think modern day romance novels are borderline erotica/pornography. I dont think that. To use movies as a comparison I would venture to say that (some)modern day romances are rated R, erotica is rated X, and pornography is XXX. I dont know how better to put it than that.
Thanks for the input Rhoda, you always have something valuable and pertinent to add. :-)
Hey everyone,
From the depths she rises,
to give decree
Ever vigilant
Not vigilante
...Just wondering what ever happened to WonderWoman.
(Passing through during a heady, exhausting week)
Heather
Howard,
Hi you (smiles). If you read "Shadows" you will again see that quote come up. There is an exchange between characters where the ownership of that quote is brought up. I like that bit.
Ciao for now :0)
Rachel
Mary,
That little piece was not erotica. Erotica and steamy sex scenes are not the same thing. You have erotica when steamy sex scenes take a major place in the book and in the plot. These scenes also go beyond basic intercourse in that it adds a lot to the act, say objects and things. For me to say more would be in poor taste. We passed around an exerpt of some of it at a writer's meeting a few years ago when I lived in Farmington, and what that was and what you wrote (which was rather tame even for a modern love scene), were not the same thing.
I think anyone who claims that erotica and pornography are not the same thing is in a great state of denial. We might not all agree where to draw the line between regular writing and pornography, but I believe we all know pornography when we read it.
Christi,
As far as morality. True morality is nothing unless we allow ourselves to live up to it. When it is compromised in order to sell a book or to make a career, or anything, we, in effect, sell our souls. If we believe something is morally wrong, how can we possibly justify doing it? Presenting characters who do things you would never do is not morally wrong as long as you stay true to the context. If you are personally opposed to murder then those characters in your book who murder should not be glorified, praised, or exalted. The act they do should be presented as cruel and gruesome because, by golly, murder is cruel, and to present it delicately is inaccurate and dishonest. Murderers and bad people should pay the consequences for what they do. They must live a life consistent to the ideal that murder, stealing, whathaveyou is wrong.
There are too many people in this society who shed their morality upon the church steps every Sunday morning. It is never taken to their families, their places of business, or in their dealings with other people. We see this in the presidential campaign. There is so much talk about morality, but when push comes to shove, it is always set aside for money, power, popularity, and in the desire not to make others uncomfortable. A person who talks and claims to be moral but who doesn't live out his morality is as bad, if not worse than the person who has no morality at all--in fact, he is infinitely more dangerous.
Anyway, Christi, the only exception that I take to your previous comment is that morality can hinder. If it is true morality, it never hinders, but in the end sets us free. Never be afraid to get hung up on the things truly important to you, whatever they be. These things are part of who you are. To do otherwise is to sqash your own morality while you adopt someone elses. Then you are not only hindered, but enslaved to the whims and caprices of popular culture. Never feel you have to stuff your beliefs in a closet and hide them from the world.
Rhoda
Rowhad,
In case you don't get any bites, what's a henweigh?
Just after Jerry Seinfeld quit his TV show he was looking around for new venues. His publicist suggested he do a particular benefit show in LA, but they found out Steve Allen had already accepted it. The Seinfeld people got Steve Allen on the phone and asked if he would mind relinquishing the show to Seinfeld. Allen said, "Sure, that'll be okay. What does MR. Seinfeld want ME to do, wash dishes?"
The man had style. His leaving will be a true loss.
GS
AMERICO -- I'd never have guessed Shakespeare! Then again, my knowledge of the Bard is sadly deficient. I'm ashamed to admit that I've never seriously studied him, beyond a rewrite of Macbeth and a cursory reading of Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet.
But ask me something about a henweigh!
howard
MARK -- Thanks for the info. I hadn't remembered Orion as anything but the hunter. I'd heard of Acteon, but not the stag part... strange -- I typed "stag" instead of "deer" without thinking, and now I do vaguely remember a connexion between Acteon and "stag" but dunno why. The memory takes some wierd twists and turns.
TEEKAY -- 'snif... :-( (it's just me, over here, ignored and unloved as usual)
There's a neat feature article on www.cnn.com this morning about Ateve Martin's new book, and some of the writerly things he's been doing.
howard
AMERICO: Drat it! Saw right through me you did. BTW wasn't it a double doctorate in psychiatry I said I had??
CHRISTI: I was only crapping on about my educational status. I'm in the same boat as you, you silly.
AMERICO: Don't know where I got the expression,notebookers from, it was just floating around in my subconscious. Probably picked up from something you said. That, or we're twins sperated at birth and share a psychotic (yes, that was deliberate)link.
CHRISTI: Hope you are still talking to me.
AMERICO: I love you.
CHRISTI: I love you.
Hi all - So much has happened on the page over these past few days. I can't keep up!
Take care all,
Rachel
HOWARD -- that's not Orion who was turned into a deer, it was Acteon. My mistake. I went to www.bulfinch.org, searched for Orion, saw not the story I remembered, searched for "stag" and found it that way.
Christi,
Sorry, I hadn't read your post before.
The word appears 24 times in S*, written last year, and I don't know how many in posts spread all over the NB, perhaps even previous to Jon's existence, I don't know.
A ridiculous issue really.
Happy week-end, everybody.
Howard,
"But me no buts" — Shakespeare.
These literary trivia can be entertaining during and after a good dinner with friends. Better than discuss politics or whatever people talk about these days.
CHRISTI -- You're welcome. Now. Ready for a little verbal skirmish? I learned it as "Woman's Talk" from an article in a linguistics anthology in 1970-something. The point was that men speak directly to a point, women hedge their bets and soften their direct statements. I heard a kid in my local sub shop call something "a bit extreme." He wanted to let his friend know {something} was taken too far, but didn't want to be confrontational. According to the author of that Woman's Talk piece, that kind of stuff happens more in female conversation than in male conversation. I tend to agree. Today's conversation was among boys. Who is more insecure than a teenager?
Put softeners, extenders, qualifiers into the speech of your characters when you want to demonstrate that they are hedging or non-confrontational. Some characters will be that way in special situations, some will always be a bit reserved. People-pleasers talk that way; they don't want to chase anyone with confrontation.
Your best gauge of how to use that kind of speech, now that it's been brought to your attentiom, is simple observation. James Joyce said artists (writers included) stand in the doorway of a room paring their nails, watching the party. Check out the people who are "so very" and "very, very" and then ask if you want your narrator to be like that. Hell, ask if YOU want to be like that.
By the Bye -- That "alone at the time" line that Mary "re-depended" on was not originated by yours truly. It was unashamedly purloined from Johnny Carson. I thought it was Rodney Dangerfield, but Mark says it was Carson.
I'm surprised no one else picked up on it -- it's a memorable line.
howard
CHRISTI -- Faux paux ? Isn't that what Reynard died from?
STEVE ALLEN -- We'll miss you, sir! Very much!
RING LARDNER Jr -- Ditto!
STUDS -- Hang in there!
howard
Christi:
I can't put my finger on it but your last post was parctually colorful and entertaining.
Debra
Heya folkies!
Howard,
I loved your epiphonic post and agree wholeheartedly with it. You had a great point; if I'm stuck and don't know the answer to something, or even just having a problem, someone here is bound to help out.
And about the cake thing, well . . . I DID IT ON PURPOSE SILLY! I guess that's the problem with written sarcasm. Many times it doesn't read like I think it will. Oh well, I'm sure I'll continue riddling my posts with the same kind of claptrap.
Mark,
Thank you, I think. You've answered my question, but now the perfectionist in me comes out every time I want to use one of these words and it's a real pain in the ass. It does help to know that it's okay in dialogue, but are we speaking of women's dialogue only or can we leave sexism out of it?
Teekay,
Orange cake? Yummers!! And after we dine, how about a game of Trivial Pursuit?
*SHREIK!* Wait, I forgot I'm not speaking to you, as I don't deign to speak with "the overly-educated". I will hereafter refer to you as "Kangie-poo". That is all.
Mary,
Seems that you've already made up your mind about the job offer. You probably made the right choice. It would be somewhat of a deterrent if you wanted to write, say, a children's book. And when you became a huge success it would have been dragged out of the closet; all those old, stanky bones. :)
As for you excerpt, it was not even as bad as some of the romance novels I read when I was younger. This is something I've wrestled with as well. I've promised myself not to get hung-up on anything, be it sex, violence, God, etc. I don't want my writing to be hindered because of my own morality. If the story demands that there be a nasty sex scene or that there be some horrific act, I hope that I'm able to carry through and write it. Life is full of things we're uncomfortable with, and books would be very boring without them.
Americo,
Have I committed a faux paux? I suppose that I did jump to conclusions in saying that Teekay had come up with the term "Notebooker". She was simply the first person I ever saw use it, and I did not scour the archives to see if you had said it before her story. I will, however, reserve my apology for the time when I am proved wrong.
Smooch!
Later toots,
Christi
AMERICO -- Of course, one of King David's grandmothers (which put her also in the direct line of the Christ) was a hooker in a red dress. Her faith saved her (literally) and earned her a place in the NT Hall of Fame.
"But me no buts?" Sounds Churchillian to me...
howard
Thanks, Howard, for the information. You'll see that this pagan will help you go to heaven (smiles).
And now another question: which British writer would be able to construct the following sentence:
"Hm me no hms"?
(The same who wrote this: "But me no buts").
Now, come on, we're here just to help one another...
Grins.
AMERICO -- The Bible teaches that sex outside marriage is sin. Therefore it teaches that prostitution is sin.
"Coherence in the religious mind at last" ??
hmmm...
Americo:
Yes, I did quit that job.
Mary:
Your welcome.
Debra
From education to pornography writing for sale through Mary. What a program! It tells everything about sexual education in school, I guess.
Teekay,
If you had two doctorates in Psychology you would not be complaining about the chores of housework as you do so often. You'd be complaining about other chores... BTW, I expected you to answer Christi about the origin of the word notebookers, which you used as title of one of your tales. Where did you get it from?
Debra,
I enjoyed your post about your reaction to a murder when you were a criminal lawyer's assistant. I saw some coherence in the religious mind at last. I did not understand your last sentence: did you quit that job?
Howard,
what does the Bible teach about prostitution? This is a genuine and serious question.
Allein,
I love you!
PS. I appreciated the tolerance everyone showed in their answers to Mary's temptation. That's the spirit of the NB I like. The topic has been a very interesting one.
DEBRA and GARY: Thanks guys, those are the issues that guided my choice. Well, those and the sticky keyboard visual aid Rohard provided. Haha. Thanks!
GARY: Yep. A rose by any other name...
Mary,
I think Debra has the answer. It all depends on how you would feel about it. Personally, I don't think you are missing the opportunity of a lifetime.
Erotica and pornography serve the same purpose. I think generally, pornography is defined by its graphic nature. What does it matter what you call it? You know it when you see it.
GS
Mary - I think love/sex scenes are alright in stories as long as they don't get too weird. For instance, I'm not interested in reading sex scenes that are nothing but smut - they should include some amount of romance and be fairly tasteful. That's only my opinion though. I've tried writing sex scenes before but it's really hard when you've never experienced it. YES - I'm a virgin - and I'm proud of it! :)
That's my two cents.
*smiles*
Allein
Mark - check out the above link, for an example of passive voice which works.
Jerry
Mary - I think you are probably doing the right thing, if that is how you feel. I don't know if I could or would do the same given the same situation. I probably would. It is wonderful to get paid to write. A few days ago, I received a check from Themestream for a little over $30.00. It was a wonderful feeling to know that this was money I earned from writing. Now if I could just get enthused about writing for them again, I have not contributed anything to them for about a month. In fact the only things I have written in the last month are those which I posted. I have started a few others, but let them die the death they well deserved, as they refused to go anywhere.
Jerry
Mark: Well....I think I am in touch with the issues. I thought that was why they approached me, but when it comes right down to it, you are right. I would be doing it for the paycheck. I love writing and of course I want to get paid for it but I want to write things that I would write whether I was getting paid or not and smut does not fit that mould. I had already turned down the position, but thanks for the reinforcement. :-)
Next question: Is there a difference between erotica and pornography? I dont just mean a difference as in to what levels each go to (unless that is the only difference), I mean is there a literary difference? If so...which would the following be? Dont read between the asterisks if you will be offended, however...I dont feel this is anything that should offend anyone...it is not very graphic.
*She loved to watch his eyes, as the indulging took place. It kept getting tougher for her to tell by watching him who was indulging whom. And to be honest, much of the time her eyes were rolled back in her head and she ‘felt him’ with the precision of a blind person. Even before he touched her she felt him, hovering, exhaling long slow breaths of pure heat. The vibration that always consumed her began at a low level. A sharp gasp wedged in her throat when she felt him kiss her the first time. The sound of his lips sucking gently as they pulled away from her was synchronized with a surge of energy that instinctively rolled her hips down, pushing herself to the tip of the tongue that would be there waiting.*
I will drop this subject like a hot potato if anyone here requests that. C-ya. --mary
I've been up the believability side of porn and down the unbelievability side.
Mary:
This in answer to your question about writing smut.
Once I was a legal secretary. I worked for a criminal lawyer. I sat at my desk looking at a person whom shot his wife in the forehead. He was sitting in the waiting area waiting for the laywer I worked for.
He smiled at me and gave me the thumbs up. I assumed he was trying to ask me to wish him good luck.
After he left I looked over the picture of his wife laying on the bed with a bullet in her head. I knew on that day that my job might be offeseive to God.
I quit. I didn't have the luxury to quit my job either.
It's your call. It all comes down with how it will make you feel.
Debra
Howard and Jerry.
I have been up one side of this issue and down the other and even though there are people out there that would be totally fine with this job......its just not for me.
They told me to feel free to send in submissions (of course..anyone can do that) if I want, so I am happy about that....I can pick and choose what I want to work on and what I dont.
I did hear some pretty salient points in defense of the genre though...the biggest one being:
"Shoot someone to death in a movie storyline and you get an R rating ...Have sex with them and get X." hmmmmmm.
Oh well.....I am just glad I dont have to think about it anymore. Was starting to give me a headache...and thats counter-productive.
Thanks again you guys. Much appreciation.
Mary - You sure have a lot to think about before making a decission like that, I know I would think long and hard about it. (no punn intended) I guess I would want to know what my children would think about my new job, likewise my parents and in-laws. (Spouse goes without saying). Other then that, hey it is a writing job, and you will be getting experience. Also have to consider how this will look on my resume. Not that it is anything to be ashamed of, but there are those prudes out there who would frown on such a job.
Sex education; Well there was this very pretty young girl named Donna, with long brown hair, deep brown eyes. She often wore this blue poodle dress, and we did take in a carnivle or two when we were young and in lust. She did however leave the carnivle with me. That is where the education began, and I am still learning. I did end up marrying her best friend, who also has long brown hair. I haven't seen Donna since shortly after our wedding some 31 years ago.
Jerry
We see the than/then mixup quite often around here. Also accept/except, there/their/they're, awful/offal, where/were, your/you're, and a few others. (Okay, I made up the awful/offal part) People just don't pay enough attention to using the rite words for the job! Their oughtta be a web sight to learn this from!
OK,
That's what I get for being a smart alec. That post didn't sound the same when I looked at it later. I didn't mean My hands.
By the way, It had never occured to mix up 'than and then'. Thanks a lot. I now have a whole new problem.
Got to run,
Rosemary
MARY -- "wrestling in a porn part?" I once knew a girl who put herself through college doing that...
HOWARD: I just picked up on the "where did they get the idea I would be well suited" comment you made in your last post. The answer is that I used to be on an email list group where questions would be posted through a mediator and then dispersed to all the members in an effort to exchange advice, or comments or whatever. This was during a period of time when I was doing research for a character I was trying to develop and I needed a certain mindset. I didnt get any help whatsoever with my character there, but some of the peoples' questions were compelling and I would sometimes pipe up and put in my two cents. To make a short story long....the mediator on that group is the editor of the magazine I am considering. Well one of them anyway. I guess he liked what I had to say and the way I said it. As far as whether or not I am any good at writing actual pornography....we will see I guess. He had me send two samples...which I agonized over, and he still asked me to come on as a writer..so they must not have been too bad. In all fairness though....its not like pornography is a literary challenge. I am more interested in writing the other articles and the non-fiction educational pieces. I am just wrestling with the porn part. Yikes. ;-)
Mark,
My sexual education was strictly a hands-on application.
Later,
Rosemary
ps. I was only kidding about the bleachers. ;-)
HOWARD: Thank goodness.......I was really hoping you would say something. Thank you!
Yes, I dont have absolute specifics..but I do know what will be expected of me..as far as how many stories/articles will be expected of me and the general subject matter (obviously).
As far as fringe benefits go...lol. I get a free subscription...does that count? HA.
The last one I saw only had 4 pictures in the whole thing and nobody was naked! Good question though. Lots of advertisements for things I have never seen in real life, but yes there is lots of writing. Lots and lots and it isnt super graphic either.
But you are right...that isnt really what I saw for myself either. But damn do I want to get paid as a writer. Man this is tuff.
Thanks for your help Howard. :-)
MARY -- BLEACHERS ??? Was that you ?? Oh my!
Re the staff writer job -- sticky keyboards and sweaty palms don't fit my picture of you. But then again, where did they get the idea you'd be well suited for the job? And is the job description well laid out for you? I mean is it something you could really sink your teeth into? Are there "fringe" elements er, benefits involved? Is there all that much writing, or do the pictures fill up most of the page?
Sorry for the "third degree" but inquiring minds want to know...
Underwear, eh?
:-)
OK GUYS: I have a dilemma. I have been asked to take a position as a staff writer. The pay is not great (big surprise), but I must say...it is awfully tempting. I feel like I need this validation..but at what price to myself?
The problem arises in what I am to be writing. I can't even believe that I am bringing this to you guys, but really....where else would I take it?
Erotic Fiction.....your thoughts? OK, let's not sugarcoat this....I am speaking of pornography here..it's a dirty job but somebody has to do it, right? sighs.....I just dont know what to think of all this.
I read it, I like doing the research (hehe)...but do I really want the title of Staff Writer; Smut Magazine?
Somebody twist the knife, please. I need to make a decision. I need a little bit of real insight here...from any standpoint. Good or bad...I would like to know other writer's opinions of pornography penners...moral issues any of you might have. I just need to be informed.
Thank you in advance
ps. I probably should mention that I wouldnt only be writing pornography for them. There would be other assignments as well....mainly dealing with education, and even important issues like AIDS awareness and prevention..things of that sort. OK I will shut up now and just hope some of you come back with something. c-ya.
For those interested in rhetoric, I have an interesting file produced by an acquaintance, that shows the use of selected rhetorical devices in our daily communication. It's tailored to lean toward the business arena, but it names several interesting parts of speech. I'll send it to anyone who requests it (my Edress is above), in WORD, WORKS, WP, or maybe a couple of other formats I can't think of right now.
Excerpts follow:
FIGUREOF SPEECH is a file that lists and describes some of
the schemes and tropes of classical rhetoric. It draws very heavily on Edward P.J. Corbett's "Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student," second ed., Oxford University Press, New York, 1971. The examples given are business-related, insofar as possible. They show that rhetoric is part of our everyday life, whether we know it or not.
---
ADDED SYLLABLES One of the "schemes of words;" the addition of syllables at the beginning, middle, or end of a word. The corresponding terms are prosthesis, epenthesis, and proparalepsis.
ALLITERATION The repetition of an initial or medial sound, as in "programming productivity plans and procedures" or "mandated management standards."
ANADIPLOSIS Repeating the last word of one clause at the beginning of the following clause.
"Sales will look to manufacturing, manufacturing will look to engineering, and engineering will look to us."
ANAPHORA Repeating the same word or group of words at the beginning of successive clauses:
"We've got to sell engineering, we've got to sell manufacturing, and we've got to sell our customers on this idea."
----
howard
Sex Education: Would under the bleachers count as institutional? I mean...it WAS in the school!
MARK: I must say...I will never forget how to use those words again. Now thats education!!!
LITTER: I wish you would post that poem you sent me in the poetry workbook. But then again..I kinda like being the only one who has it yet. Big hugs to you.
Howard: I intended this post to be longer...but you made me laugh so hard that I have to go change my underwear.
Bye Everybody! Love you guys. Back later....waves to Teekay.
MARK -- You asked:
"How did you learn about sex? Institution or self taught?"
I don't really remember, it was so long ago. I do remember that it was scary, and I was alone at the time...
For those who may be interested:
NEW YORK (AP) -- An unpublished 1945 novella by Jack Kerouac will be available on the Internet next month, according to digital publisher LiveREADS.
"Orpheus Emerging" will not be available in traditional paper form for two years. Its suggested retail price from LiveREADS is $3.95
Mark & Ghost, had a nice chat, very enjoyable, however a mite frightful.
Jerry
Thank you Christi! I needed that lift! I'm being a bit down on myself these days. :-)
Hope everyone had a scary day! Almost 800 little goblins, witches, butterflies and pumpkins came trick-or-treating where I work, and oh! what fun it was to see them. Usually I'd go to the fireworks now, but it's raining very, very hard (sorry couldn't resist) and I can't imagine standing outside to watch them.
TTFN
Tina
MARK: Thought you were in the chatroom, but seems it was only your skeleton.
Education. How did you learn about sex? Institution or self taught?
Hi All,
AMERICO: Methinks HALLEE shall always be younger than you if she already is. No amount of time will be able to correct that. :-)
CHRISTI: I too feel like I have 1000000 bits of inane trivia bouncing around in my head. You'd think there'd be something in that wouldn't you? But my trivia are soooo trivial that they don't even do me any good when trying to answer the questions to game shows. NOOOOOO they always ask the OTHER trivia questions. Probably the ones to which you have the answers bouncing around in your head. It's just not fair.
Also, what's the point of having a cake if not to eat it? It's not chocolate is it? I've had enough chocolate. Now if it were say, an orange cake.........
Oh, by the way thanks to you I shall now know not to post and reveal that I have a double doctorate in psychiatry and a masters in social science. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa
Okay, for what it's worth, here is my opinion on the education system, ah no, on second thoughts let's talk about something else.
GARIESS: You do have an evil sense of humour. I adore it.
Ummmm okay, that's it. I think I've finished.
MARY -- You made me go look 'em up. I generally use in-sure, en-sure, as-sure without much thought. My gut told me that insure is passive and ensure is active and assure is mental. damn sure.
I was almost right. Insure is either active or passive (vt, vi in the dictionary: meaning transitive or intransitive, takes or does not take an object in a sentence). I can't think of an example where the verb has no object because we always insure something. My feeling of passivity from it probably comes from my role in the transaction. When I insure something, I pay someone else to do the real work.
Ensure is always a transitive verb, thus is always active, and is always reflective of my role as provider. I ensure that the walls get painted because I take a part in the job. I make certain of something.
Assure chiefly deals with the way people think about things. We offer assurances, meaning we offer peace of mind. Assure is always a transitive verb. I assure you of this.
An' if I was yo pimp, I as-sure you that I would en-sure to in-sure ure-ass.
Christi:
You know which ones I always screw-up? Insure, Ensure, Assure. And to make matters worse, when you look them up in the dictionary, they are each the last word of the definition of the other two. What the ....?
HALLEE -- I know just what you mean about hearing those voices in your work. Interesting that they speak in those strong and muted patterns. In dialogue I'd say it makes perfect sense to have speakers use suitable expressions. In narration I'd call it a mistake. Seeing those patterns, I use them in my writer's arsenal to ensure that my characters stay in character.
Three more chapters? Breathe. Breathe. Breathe.
CHRISTI -- I'd say that pretty much answers your question also. Obviously, I'm not going to say NEVER on the use of so, very, much, etc. in narrative, but trim it from places where you have no special purpose for it. In dialog, I'd say it adds fullness to some characters; most readers won't know why they believe a weak character is weak, but you'll know what signals are there.
Supper time. Bye all.
MARK: After I read that crit you gave me regarding the differences between the way women speak and men, I had to go back to the book I'm writing (3 more chapters and I'm done...yeah!!!) and find something. I started reading dialogue, and realized that my dialogue subconsciously followed the same pattern. It's probably because I can hear the voices in my head and I'm writing as they're speaking...or not...who knows.
HAPPY HALLOWEEN ALL!!!
HALLowEEn
Howard,
Education and employers' demands in Europe.
I wish some other European could help me answer your question. I have always been living at the shadow of governmentally-run or governmentally-protected/subsidized educational institutions. Educational qualifications are the only factor that counts for admission and promotion in such places. (A bit of charm can help as well...)
In the private sector, there has been lately a curious phenomenon. Since employers are expected to pay according to the qualifications of their employees, there has been a tendency for them to prefer non-graduates to people with degrees. The idea is that anything you need to know you can learn in the working place. But these are still exceptions, and the general rule is that if you want a good job you need good qualifications.
I've referred to white-collar jobs of course.
BTW, Christi -- the trivial/pedantic side of me remembers that the exact quote was "You can't have your cake and eat it too." It's one of those nuance-ical subtitles (or something like that)
MARK -- I remember the Mayor of "Crabb Corners" too. I met her at a Red Cross reception, then again later at a United Way luncheon. I was surprised that she remembered me. Nice lady. I was so very very happy she was someone else's wife.
CHRISTI -- You just put your finger on what's been bugging me for years! Well, not literally, ;-) but you said:
"I have what seems like millions of bits of inane trivia bouncing around in my brain, but am missing some major parts to tie them together."
That's exactly the feeling Ihave had for years! (Try the sequence of keystrokes to produce I quickly!)
That's why I've kept reading and studying -- to maybe find that magical connection that will tie it all together into something that's complete. And now in reading your post I believe I've had one of them there epiphany thingies (look it up in any commentary on James Joyce)!
It struck me that that connection is US ! It's not magic, it's you and it's me, and everyone in this notebook, etc, and it's never complete, because we are still "under construction!"
Maybe I'd realised that before, but I forget things, and you reminded me of it.
but then, of course it might be simply indigestion...
Thank you!
howard
Mark,
I missed you while composing my own post. Thank you for finding that crit for me. It's no wonder I couldn't find it; I was looking in the wrong spot.
Thanks also for your comments on education and intellegence. My long-winded post was attempting to say something similar. I guess I need to let some of the air out.
Now back to qualifiers. I VERY MUCH appreciated what you said. REALLY. But seriously here, are we supposed to avoid these words at all costs, or can they be sparsely used? I find it impossible to eliminate them from my writing altogether, but have found that cutting down on them has improved it. Help!
Tina,
I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your last poem. It was wonderful, and demanded to be read three times!
Christi - don't feel bad about not having attended college. I too was a high school drop-out. In 1969 I had just married, and was working and attending high school. I found it too difficult to do both, and gave up high school. I did, however get my GED while in the Army (Couldn't get promoted without it). After finishing my 8 year stint in the Army, I went into law enforcement, and soon found myself being pushed through the ranks until I was promoted to Chief of Police. I used to interview applicants for patrolman jobs, many of which were recent college graduates. At some point in their interview, they told me of their accomplishment. I usually told them that I would not hold a college education against them. As far as police work is concerned at least back in those days, the officers with college education usually took longer in making decisions, and many times their decisions were based on some sociology course, where the professor taught them that all crime came from poor upbringing, and was the fault of society, and not the criminal. I also found that my best officers were those with a high school education, as they were willing to learn the job, and didn't have pre conceived ideas on criminology. This has changed in recent years, since the colleges now offer a law-enforcement program.
Garriess - I was not aware that I needed to grammar check my posts. See above, as a possible explanation as to my errors in grammar usage. At any rate, you did send me in search of my old college grammar book, where I reviewed the difference between the two words, and their proper usage. I shall endeavor to use these words properly in the future.
Jerry
Gariess,
;) My absence bemoaned?! Ooh, I've never been bemoaned before! You always give me a giggle, Gariess.
And speaking of word misusage, I do have a nasty problem with the words accept and except. I know what they each mean, but every time I have to use EXCEPT, I choke.
Americo,
I'm the first to admit that my education is somewhat lacking. I have what seems like millions of bits of inane trivia bouncing around in my brain, but am missing some major parts to tie them together. Unfortunately, the schools where I grew up didn't care about providing an education for us. I saw them pass kids who had never turned in a page of homework, never answered one question in class or cracked open a book. The teachers simply did not want to see these troublemakers come back into their classrooms, ever. And because these kids were allowed to intimidate the teachers and the rest of us, we didn't learn much in school. As a result, more kids than you can imagine graduated high school without even knowing how to read.
At the time, this created a disdain in me towards the educational system, but I now know that I lived in an undesirable school district. I wish that more money was spent in offering a good education to the people who need it the most, the people who may never have another chance in their lives to make it good. That's not how it is, though.
I do realize how useful a provincial education is, and I will probably enroll in college when my children begin school. I still have a problem with what I see as snobbery from the "haves" towards the "have nots". It seems as if many people who have a college education cannot fathom that someone who does not can be as intelligent as they. In truth, I've met several "educated idiots" who, I swear, must have paid someone to do their work and tests for them. Complete morons, these.
This is not to say that I have EVER seen this attitude displayed here on the Notebook. In fact, coming here is partly what has changed my mind on education. I've only felt comraderie and encouragement from all of you, and I thank you for it. I love the constructive critisism and useful information I've gotten here, and know that my writing has improved much as a result.
Drawoh,
It is interesting that employers wish their staff to have an education AND experience, even though it is nearly impossible for a young person to acheive both in such a short amount of time. All I can think is that employers want their cake and they want to eat it too. Incidentally, I've always thought that was the dumbest quote. If you had cake, why wouldn't you eat it? Isn't that what one does with cake? And if you didn't have cake, well, you couldn't very well eat it, now could you? :)
Off my soapbox,
(promise)
Christi
Hello All!
Not much time lately, between work and being SICK (I won't sneeze on anyone here) but I've been lurking. Still not much time, 'cause I've gotta become little Red Riding Hood for work. Kids come trick or treating where I work, and we hand out bugs and bats and icky things. I have much fun and it's a great reason to get in the spirit and dress up!
My brain is far too fuzzy to add to this discussion in any meaningful way. So my only comment is... what you get out of school is a reflection of what you put in. Regardless of whether you graduate high school or college, if you are self-taught or attend formal classes or correspondence, teachers can only teach. Students have to want to learn, be open to learning and be willing to put in the effort and time needed.
TTFN
Tina
CHRISTI -- I went to the WB and found the little crit you looked for. It's in ShrotStoryCritique page there. I was mistaken on the date, not last month after all -- October 9th date on it.
" Reading your story I was reminded of an essay on 'Women's Words' that was popular in the 60s and 70s when we fought the sexist language battle. The gist of the essay was that women use little softening qualifiers throughout their speech. "It's very, very nice to meet you." 'nice' would actually be stronger, but women shouldn't be strong, shouldn't be straightforward. So, very, much, such, just, and other words that modify feeling or modify the action actually weaken it. I suppose it's ladylike in person, but in writing we want simple, direct statement. "
That's it for what was in the WB crits. As a sidebar I'd like to add that in the mid-80's we had a woman mayor here. (If I addressed her as "Madam Mayor" would it sound like she had two job titles?) Where was I? Oh, yeah. The Mayor had wonderful presentation skills and could really hold a crowd, but ... she always used double and triple qualifiers. We regularly heard of "very, very" impoprtant projects and "so very, very" meaningful reforms and acts that were "so very, very much" appreciated. As a speaker, it worked. The written record of her speeches is another matter.
TEEKAY -- I went right past Jerry's "coxing," so I didn't get your comment until after I re-read the story. hahahahahahahaha. bon mot.
GARIESS, HOWARD, AMERICO, RHODA, and whoever commented on education -- The whole thing has me scratching my head. I'm certain that there is a difference between intelligence and education. I'm certain that education can help kids think in ways they wouldn't come to by themselves. I'm also certain that only by luck do good intellect and good education meet in the same room.
Americo's point that we learn as we live is certainly relevant. Kids learn THINGS voluminously. Adults learn ASSOCIATION over time. My 18-year-old students could recite every item on a McDonalds menu and tell the basic job duties of McDonalds employee postions. My 30-year-old students could tell how prices and menu items changed in response to competition, style, and taste fluctuations.
AMERICO -- Institutional education vs self-taught is an interesting comparison here. On the one hand, employers in industry (and in academia) demand a certain level of education, balancing that education level against how much they're willing to pay in salary and benefits. But then they hedge their bets, demanding a certain number of years of experience in the specific field. They understand that need for both theoretical and practical knowledge.
Is it the same in Europe?
Correction:
whether.
The other mistakes are too obvious to be corrected.
It's not easy to speak about institutional education and self-taught education. If we want to be logical we have to concede that the former has some advantages over the latter. After all you cannot graduate if you rely only on what others teach you; you must also study by yourself — you are both a "normal" student and a self-taught student.
Institutional education provides a certain degree of humbleness. By comparing yourself with the others you get a better perspective of your limitations. It also gives a certain discipline and methodology.
Self-taught education can teach as much as institutional education, if you have access to the same libraries and labs as "normal" students. But the lack of competition tends to develop false ideas about yourself and the others. You only know what you have learned, you ignore what the others know. If you are not careful you can easily become a pedant and a prig — defects of which no one is exempt.
Institutional education does not end with graduation. A post-graduate degree is usually a very lonely affair. That's when the person who studied in schols and colleges becomes an almost full-time self-taught student (unless his research is the outcome of collective work). He adds to the advantage of knowing that he knows little the drawback of believing that he knows more than the others, at least in the subject of his research. The result is a doctor: a donkey overloaded with diplomas.
Don't start laughing at me: a non-doctor is a donkey overloaded with illusions.
We learn very little, wheather we have studied in schools or at home.
There is only one ideal educational system : Life-Learning. No schools, no books, no diplomas. It's an extremely demanding and difficult system. Only rare people pass all the exams and graduate in that. But the award for the happy few who complete a course in that system is wonderful: a holy death.
GARIESS -- Here here!
AMERICO -- (and Gary) The USians appellation came from one of the best history teachers I ever had (in college). She reserved the term "American" for the whole population of the North and South American continents. It made sense to me at the time.
It's taken me aaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll bloody day to get on this site and now that I finally have I've got to go and dish up dinner before the potatoes turn into sad crumbly lumps and the brocolli all falls apart and the pumpkin gets soooo soft it falls through the holes in the steamer. *SOB*
I shall have to read this off line and I just hate to do that because I always have at least one thing I want to comment on.
Seeyou all tomorrow *sniff*
Christi,
There, you went and lowered my opinion of you by admitting you didn't finish high school. Just when I was starting to get over my depression, too. One thing that upset me is that I read through your post to see how many mistaken uses of the word, "then" I could find. I found none, and I will discuss that a bit later. If you sroll down the page you will see that there are several mistaken uses of the word, "then" in a post from one of our Jerrys, the one who graduated with a 4.0 average.
Now, I don't mean to get Jerry's shorts in a bunch, this is actually a phenomenon of the mind that few people have been able to explain. The difference between THEN and THAN haunts a good many well schooled people. I find that there are different categories of people who suffer from this small and little recognized learning disorder.
In one category are the people who over-use the word in many cases where it could be avoided, almost as though to emphasize the problem. Also, the disorder might manifest itself in a refusal to ever use one of the words as though it does not exist." A former supervisor of mine used to write countless memos such as the following: "When removing the charts, please stamp the date, than put them in the proper file. Than put the date on the new chart." This woman never used the word, "then." I don't believe she actually new there were two different words.
Of course the most egregious behavior is that of the person who aviods any situation where the disorder might show up. I suggest to you, Christi, that if you examine your post you will see that you have avoided the use of either of the words, clearly illustrating that you are just the kind of person who not only does not go to College, but that you are also very likely to be a person who has not finished high school, and therefore someone who should be held in low esteem.
Why you have made this confession in this forum I can scarcely understand, but since you have done so, I must believe that you wish to be looked upon with disdain. I, for one, shall be only too happy to accomodate you on this matter. Of course, that does not mean that you should not continue posting here. After all, I am sure there are many here who would bemoan your absence, such as myself, if I must be truthful. Does anybody know if truthul has two l,s? Should l be in Quotes? "l"? "L"? Damn!!
GS
After reading the reports in the NB(especially Rhoda’s) on the state of American education, I have decided to commit sepecu, as soon as I learn how to spell sepecu. Tell me this. Who decides how a word is officially spelled in English when the word is from a language that doesn’t use our alphabet, or for that matter doesn’t even come from a written language, like Sioux? I just tried to spell sepecu. That may be totally wrong, but who says it can’t be spelled, sepacoo.
Americo, Howard’s idea to call us Usians is likely born from the fact that we are accused of calling ourselves Americans as though we were the only nation on the continent. The charge is well made, in fact. Hondurans and Canadians, Argentineans and Mexicans are also Americans. I think this whole thing comes from the difficulty of incorporating "United States" into any kind of reasonable sounding patriotic anthem. As it is, we had to steal our national anthem from the drinking song of a British men’s club. Nobody would ever have written a song titled "The United States The Beautiful." When I was a kid we had to sing the national anthem in school. Our favorite rendition was, "Oh, say can you see any cooties on me? If you can, pick a few ‘cause I got them from you."
In those days we also recited The Lord’s Prayer. From the first day of school, I wondered why we said our father was in heaven and was calling himself, Harold. Our father was Edward, and he was working at the restaurant. As far as I knew, Harold was some smelly kid in the second row.
So, maybe education isn’t what it should be, but what is?
Give us this day our jelly bread.
GS
Good evening, all!
I went questing through the archives trying to find Mark's post about not over-using the words JUST, VERY, REALLY, ect., because that sage advice has done my writing wonders, but instead of finding it, I found a touching day I had missed out on. I found Americo's "When I was Thirty", and read Mark's lovely post, as well as Heather's and many others. I was moved. Thanks guys, it was lovely. Oh, And lest I forget, happy extraordinarily late birthday, Mary! I hope that turning thirty was a positive time for you. I turned thirty-one this year and it felt tres fabu!
On education:
Most of my friends who are teachers are quitting their jobs. They think the whole system will need revamping before kids get to learn again, instead of continuously "watching their backs". I don't know about that; I'm still mulling the whole thing over.
On my education:
I grew up in a not-so-nice area of town and was greatly in the minority. I rarely studied because I was too busy thinking about all the bullies I would have to avoid the next day, and about how I was going to get home in one peice. I was fortunate, in that my mother had taught me to read at the age of two (My parents love to brag about this, but I suspect I may have been three.); so I emersed myself in every book I could get my hands on, reading adult books by the time I was five.
I never did go to college, or even finish high school for that matter. I hope this does not lower everyone's opinion of me; I've never understood why it makes a difference if someone self-educates themself or not. Especially if one is forced to do so. I wasted many years feeling stupid and inferior, until I realized that feeling sorry for one's self is a sickening habit, and if I had things I wanted to do I'd better get on with it. I'm still at the top of the list, though, and working down.
I suppose I am a bit jaded when it comes to talking about our educational system. I do think it's good for some, but that it puts a damper on the potential of others. I am a huge hypocrite, however, because I would like my son to go to college.
Did someone say it was Bare-all Monday? Sorry all, I do believe my undies are showing. ;) I'm outta here before I lose my shirt too!
Mucho love,
Christi
Ah yes there were those college stories too, I also knew the young ladies who were balancing their college education, the upbringing of their child, and working trying to support both. I had a lot of respect for their guts and ability to make it, almost all of them that I knew made it too. I did spend some time teaching many of my fellow students the basics of computer operation, which was very lacking at the time. Also for two semesters, I was housed with the Law Enforcement students, which made life very interesting both for myself and the cadets. They were studying law enforcement, and I had just ended my career in law enforcement.
All in all it was a learning experience for all of us, and I wouldn't give up a minute of it for love or money.
Jerry
Oooh!! College stories!! I can contribute now!
Okay, so this one time, at band camp...
Just kidding! :) We were talking about that movie today in class, but also today, our instructor gave us little halloween gift bags to wish us a happy halloween. It seemed full and I thought it was full of candy - I got a miniature hershey bar, a travel toothbrush, toothpaste and floss. Go figure. But, from the way my teeth feel after I eat candy - getting those things is probably good.
*smiles*
Allein
8:37 p.m. EST
In the chat room for a while
Mark
In this and previous discussions about education, I've sensed a certain pessimism about the current system and probably about what is taught. I've tried to remain away from the topic because I know little about USian education (USian, very useful neologism, Howard). I'll just tell what I know.
The USian students I met were very different from one another but shared some points in common: they were all hard working people and a joy to work with; they were all fascinated with the old stones of Europe and none of them combed their hair. They were also surprised that we did not live in pigsties — but they were too optimistic by nature. Their tendency to put their legs on tables disappeared after some reproachful looks, and none of them chewed gum in the classes. They also had a very good sense of humour. I remember this huge Texan whom I protested for the USians invasion of one of the countries you invade regularly. He looked at me in a curious way and said: "And you be quiet if you don't want THEM to invade you as well."
He did not feel responsible at all for the acts of his country. That was sort of funny for me. I concluded that a USian has not the same intimate relationship with his country as we do here. But I'm sure he knew the "Oh, say" by heart and would also put his hand on his heart when the USian anthem was played. A very nice bunch the Americans abroad.
As for learning abilities and previous educational background I've found them as good as the other students. Only the figures of speech cause them a serious headache. But your great country was made to take Man to the stars and not to write "The Lusiads".
You cannot expect your children to learn what you did and in the same way you did. A bit of chaos is necessary to rebuild the world. I believe in the younger generations. I have more doubts about the old teachers and the old parents. All I'd teach these boys and girls would be a bit more grammar and a bit more poetry. But not necessarily the figures of speech. I myself never learned them very well.
Oboy!College war stories! :-) In my last semester (Spring 1995) I was 54 years old, taking 16 credits (most of them were writing emphasis classes), volunteering as a tutor in the writing center at school, and working part-time(60-67 hours some weeks). That was the only semester I made it up from the dean's list to the president's list.
While at school I learned lots more than the professors taught (or tried to teach) us in class. Much of that was from my classmates, most of whom were not even out of their teens. For the most part they taught lessons on how to live (survive, at least) even though many of them had to come in for remedial assistance in basic English, writing, and math.
Some of them were on their own, products of dysfunctional families. Some had been booted out of their families because they were "old enough" (at age 18) to make it on their own. Some even had babies of their own.
One girl was so tired she had trouble staying awake in class. We found out that she was getting up at 5:00 AM, taking her daughter (on the bus)to a babysitter, then coming to school to study before her 8:00 class. She worked after school until late at night -- because she didn't want to go on welfare -- to support the two of them.
One of the boys that I tutored in the writing center came from "good parents" that gave him everything he wanted except the self confidence to live a life of his own. He was strung out on drugs most of the time, and the last I heard was that he had found that he was HIV positive, and headed for the west coast to find someting "real."
Another 18 year old girl in one of my voice classes had a beautiful voice and loved to sing, but she had problems with a chronic sore throat. I found her crying one day outside the music building. She had come home from the doctor with the news that she had a possibly malignant tumor in her larnyx, and there was a high probability that she would require radical surgery which would leave her with no voice at all. Her mother, who had thought all along that school (especially music) was a waste of time, showed no compassion at all when she was told this. Her words were "What the f*ck do I care? You're big enough to have your own job and medical."
I know it sounds cliche, but these kids, and others like them, all had tired, old eyes. They had seen too much, too soon. They were (and are) learning to be con artists, because that's what it takes to get along in our society. They hadn't had time for the education they should have been receiving, because they were too busy learning the moves that would keep them alive, and reasonably sane. They knew - for the most part - basic right from wrong, but kept getting handed the wrong.
And that's the education and outlook that we keep on handing them. In our society we delegate to the schools the task of disseminating values and morals. Then we strip those schools of the tools they need to use in order to teach those values and morals.
But that some of them did come in for the remedial help they needed, and some of them paid a real price for that.
Others, though, still insist on a free ride. My youngest daughter teaches high school math at a large (affluent) suburban school. She just gave an exam, with two weeks' prior notice, and she made herself available before and after school for anyone who wanted extra help in preparing for the test. No one came. I think she said that one or two students passed the exam, and the lowest score was 11. That students' parents called her at home to rant and rave about how she's a lousy teacher and she'd better reconsider that grade, because their daughter needed it in order to play sports and go to college.
I used to think I had some of the answers to all this, but now I wonder.
Sorry for the long post.
howard
Speaking of American education, after I was injured, the Bureau sent me to college, to retrain me from being a police officer to the sedentary job of para-legal. Having been out of school longer then the age of my fellow students, I had the opportunity to see what had changed in high school education. Back when I was in High School in the late 60's like most students of that era, I was much more interested in girls and beer then I was in becoming educated. We were told that if we graduated from High School we could expect to find good jobs, and those who dropped out would be doomed to menial labor for the rest of their lives, much as today's students are told that only with a college degree, can you find adequate employment, while those with High School educations are doomed to menial labor for life. At any rate, back in the late 60's, I was a rather poor student, barely scraping by with c's ad d's. As I said because of my disinterest in education. At any rate, with my poor history in High School, I expect college to be very difficult for me. I found College to be less challenging then I expected, and remained on the President's list every semester, graduating with a 4.0 GPA. My fellow students however were amazed at performance, and the fact that I found the courses so easy. I think it reflects on the change in teacher attitudes, and what children are taught in high school these days. Now I am aware that I learned very much by the simple process of living these many years, and maybe that was the reason for the great difference. I was however the first student in the history of the paralegal program to maintain a 4.0 gpa.
Jerry
The pangs of conscience have struck me. All is not bleak in American schools. There are very good schools here and legions of great, dedicated teachers. I think many school systems are trying to improve and I know many parents care about their children's education very much.
Generalizations are not fair. Yes, I stand by what I wrote in my previous posting, but I also failed to point out that those trends have not been entirely universal. There is excellence in the U.S., though I am afraid that the pursuit of such is in jeaporady.
My experience in public school was very bad and I am afraid that fact colors my perspective a bit.
Rhoda
Hallee,
Amen to that! I think most of the problem lies directly with the American educational system which is merely a reflexion of society. I do not believe education in this country set out to be inferior; I just think too many parents and hence children do not see the value of learning the classics and in excelling in knowledge. This talk we are having with reading can just as easily be transferred over to math and science. While my mother taught high school English, my dad was a college chemistry professor. In the last five years of his career, remedial math classes were offered for those people going into college who could not master simple mathematics. Remedial reading was also offered.
What are people who can not do basic math and who are illiterate doing in college? Yet like driving, college has been transformed from a privledge to a right. Really I think students should not be required to go to class. Universities should save some money and fire all their faculty. The students then could merely pay their $50,000 or so tuition for four or five years and be handed their diplomas upon entrance.
Many teachers in school systems are to some degree a product of the the same school system in which they serve. They are also of the same culture as the students. In this present American culture, materialism reigns supreme and if one cannot make a buck with knowledge, why pursue it? Another harbinger of current American society is low expectations. One is only expected to succeed academically if one gets high scores on some tests and is shuffled into the talented and gifted classes or honor's classes. Everyone else gets the dregs. The teachers have given up, parents don't care, and so their children don't care either.
Perhaps I exaggerate a little. I hope so, but it is too often true. People must be pushed at first to excell. Competition used to do that. Adults do a great injustice to kids by assuming that all these young minds care about is Nintendo and Pokemon. It is even worse if a child is a minority. The system assumes that this person is underprivledged and thereby cannot be expected to do the same quality of work as the other kids. Some children just need some guidence. That is what their parents and teachers are supposed to be there for. If young children are introduced to good literature and classics, and if they are encouraged to study them, many will like them.
Another lesson overlooked is that everything worthwhile comes about with great effort. Smart people have to study; they have to work. It does not come natural to them. We don't value things that have come too easily or things that have been given to us. I swear that is why so many teenagers are so bored. They are given everything and not expected to work for these things.
Great literature, classics, culture, expertise in any subject takes effort and thought and it is that effort which makes it great. These works do not reveal their secrets too readily. Great art has hidden depths that beyond the initial contact have to be thought about and probed for the gold inside. Great art or literature never gets old or stale because it teaches something new upon every sighting or every reading.
Too bad that so many people in this country miss out on so much. I shudder to think of the dull, colorless, meaningless lives we have presented to our children.
Forever on my soapbox,
Rhoda
Howard,
That's definitely a metaphor... And above all a pretty sentence.
Hallee,
I honesty don't think that "my mind is so far ahead of yours". If you feel that that's because you are younger than me, a "defect " which you'll correct in due time (smiles). Young people tend to be generous.
As for our religious and political differences, I suspect they are not so big, if you believe in Democracy and
respect all religions as expressions of the best the human mind has produced . And if you hate the Inquisition and Theocracy and Fascism and anything that does not place Man as value number 1.
When I say Man I include all animals and all trees (mainly cats and willows...).
AMERICO -- Actually, Philip's
"Let a simile be like your umbrella"
is a play on words as well. The original is:
"Let a smile be your umbrella."
HALLEE -- You're right on about the attitudes toward learning. I still have great difficulty naming the parts of speech, because I (and many others) never paid any attention to learning grammar, rhetoric, and ther "useless" things like them while in high school. I've still had no formal learning in them. There are horrendous gaps in my understanding of such things. I can win at Scrabble(tm) but I can't tell you why...
Howard,
Philip Cohen's sentence "Let a simile be like your umbrella", as a figure of speech is trickier than it looks. I'd call it a comparison because the comparison is explicit (it contains the word "like"). A simile would be "Let a simile be your umbrella". Yet the sentence is not only absolutely right (and, to my mind, not even paradoxical) but also a good example of a... well, let's call it just a figure of speech.
When I don't know how to call a figure of speech I call it ... a metaphor. Most people do. "Metaphor" has become almost synonymous to figure of speech, which is not acurate but is rather convenient. Hence, "metaphorically speaking", a phrase which ends up meaning anything figurative. I believe that what really matters in figurative language is to understand it, rather than distinguish the various figures of speech. Some of them are really tricky.
The best way to make people understand figurative language is to read them poetry. Some people have trouble accepting as valid a simple sentence like "All the world is a stage". They say, "That's impossible, that's a stupid sentence." Only when we tell them that Shakespeare wrote it (and painfully explain its meaning) do they start understanding how wonderful the world of language is.
Hi everyone. It's Monday..(sigh).
((((Teekay))) Hugs back to you...thanks for the crit.
Americo: Despite our apparent political and relgious differences, and despite the fact that your mind is SO far ahead of mine, I truly like you (you can rest easy now - haha). As for the way Americans read, I might have some insight.
When I was in high school, I took all advanced courses. Because I moved from one state to the other in the middle of my sophomore year, I had already taken some required classes, and I had some classes I needed to catch up on. So, my junior year's schedule was a mess. I was in physics - a senior class, ROTC - only 2 classes a day offered, and some other things that really messed up my schedule so that for the first week or so, I was in a normal English class. There were 7 of us in that class that should have been in the advanced class, but our schedules conflicted. Finally, the teacher that taught advanced American History gave up her lunch break so we could take it then, and we were able to get to all of the classes we were supposed to be in.
The junior year English class is supposed to be American Literature. The curriculum also tied into the American History, so that for a while at least, we were studying literature out of the same time period that we were studying events. It was neat that it worked out that way. But, in the supposedly American Literature class that wasn't gifted (it also wasn't remedial) they were studying sentence structure. The teacher had learned, after so many decades of teaching, that most students who entered her classroom didn't care for or wouldn't be able to comprehend the classics of American Literature, and she also figured out that most of them came into her class not even able to grasp the barest standards of writing anything. So she taught it.
Whether or not this is something that is similar throughout the country or not, I have no idea. In the gifted and advanced classes, most of us were eager to learn and soaked up as much as we could. But in the regular classes, the opposite was true. Screw around as much a you can..give about 50% of what you're capable of giving, then bitch about the low grades you get.
Whether it's the education, attitude, society, or a combination of all of it, I think that perhaps the reason, Americo, is that they (meaning those that can't - not all Americans) simply don't know how to comprehend what they read except for what they see is because they never learned, never were willing to learn, or never figured out how.
And whether or not any of this makes sense is beyond me...hahaha.
Hallee
AMERICO -- I was wrong about Ellison -- it was Ralph Ellison. (I just double-checked on Altavista) Interesting man! He died in 1994, and there's a memorial library of his works in Oklahoma City. Thanks for pointing him out!
(Harlan is a very interesting writer also...)
howard
AMERICO -- Perhaps you were thinking of Harlan Ellison - a very good SF writer. That quotation sounds very like him.
Your perception of the inability of USians to understand the subtleties of "figurative language" may be accurate, and may be due to the lack of emphasis on the classical studies in language and rhetoric. For many of us a debate is something that happens every four years, having no set rules or format, and that normally pits two grown men (who ought to know better) against each other in a contest to see who can make a higher wet spot on the wall, right in front of God and everybody. Then Dan Rather translates what they said, in standard midwest media accent and form.
An acquaintance of mine (Philip Cohen) coined the following, which I have used once in a while because I like it very much. He said:
"Let a simile be like your umbrella."
I don't remember more than two or three people really catching on to that one without an explanation.
more later
howard
Howard and Rhoda,
Thanks for your comments on the topic "Americans tend to read too literally". I've been trying to remember the name of the writer who complained about that. I think it was Ralph Ellison (but is he still alive? Hope he is — a very good writer).
I would like to add some thoughts to that issue. To begin with, the problem is not only American. Figurative speech, irony, humor, symbolism are always difficult to catch and subject to as many interpretations as the culture, the intelligence, the prejudices of readers.
It happens, however, that Americans (meaning USA people) seem to find more difficulty in understanding figurative language than others. I have some experience in dealing with students both in Portugal and in England — at all levels. So I know what I'm speaking about.
The Americans I met or taught were good students and nice guys, but they had a lot of trouble to understand let's say the difference between a simile and a comparison, not to mention the difference between a metonymy and a synecdoche (I myself have trouble to distinguish these two).
They could understand easily a comparison like "he eats like a pig", but not so easily "she is a swan" (mainly if this simile was ironic). The only way for them to understand this was to say that a comparison has a word like "like" in it, while the simile makes the comparison without "like".
If, however, the explanation was a bit more sophisticated — for instance, using the notions of implicit (for simile) and explicit (for comparison) — they would not understand.
Abstract thought does not seem to be a very Statesian quality, which might explain the shortage of philosophers in that part of the world (though there is William James, etc.)
There is also the probem of terminology, which might differ from country to country. And the problem of "false friends", words with the same origin (usually Latin) but which have acquired different meanings in Neo-Latin and in Anglo-Saxonic countries (and even in England versus other English-speaking countries).
Sticking only to the main topic and confining it to the impact of the cultural heritage on a reader's reaction.
I ascribe the hypersensibility of some Americans to things like the Bible or Sex to their Puritan heritage. They should try to understand that the Bible is, for billions of people, just a book like any other, and, for billions of people, not the book of books written on God's inspiration, as their faith leads them to believe.
For me, as a writer, the Bible is just one of the masterpieces of World Literature, and nothing else. There are others as good. As a religious soul, and depending on the days, I might prefer the Bible to the Al-Khuran, or the Baghavad-Gita to the Bible and the Al-Khuran — but that is a matter of faith and preference. And as I said it depends on the rain and the wind.
If you really want to know my real preferences, I'll tell you that to a desert island I'd rather take the "Iliad" or the "Odyssey" than any of those "sacred books". If I were to die (which I do not intend to) I'd probably ask someone to read me some excepts from the Bible (preferably from the New Testament). Since I will never die, my favorite book and the one I'll take to Eternity-and-Back will be "Robinson Crusoe" (and some Port wine).
It's up time that religious minds try to understand and respect free-thinkers like me — this if they also want to be respected. (Free-thinkers, in this post, means only that you think and speak freely, not anything else).
Oh, and I shoud speak about sex now. Perhaps another time.
Besides cultural heritage there is also a degree of funcional illiteracy in the incapacity to understand humor or figurative speech. I repeat that this is by no means confined to Americans, but only in the USA (and in some British quarters) can reactions as those against Mrs Rowling occur nowadays. I say nowadays because other countries like mine had their share of unbelievable stupidity in the past, but they seem to have learned the lesson and tend not to take their backwardness to fields like literature anymore. Some people sometimes try buy they are so laughed at that they give up on the next day.
I'm speaking about democratic countries, as reactions such as the one against the nice books by Mrs Rowling (who started her Harry Potter series here while married to a Portuguse writer who had not enough patience for her fits of jealousy) also happen in fundamentalist Muslim and backward communist countries like China (in China for different reasons, political rather than religious).
It's fair to say that if Europeans tend to be better readers and not so limited as some Americans in their interpretations of the written word, they tend to be more intolerant. Here lies the apparent contradiction: they do not possess the good-will yankees have in the bottom of their romantic hearts, and between capacity for reading and a warm heart, I prefer the latter.
This is just an opinion — subject to correction — made of generalizations which are not meant to affect any individual on this notebook, alive or dead. (I like this part to finish).
...and sometimes we repeat ourselves
gee, I didn't know it would do that!
i wasn't even ready to post that the first time!
AMERICO -- Too literally? I don't really know how to answer that. Perhaps we do. If we do, perhaps it's a backlash from a legal system that exploits our language in order to squeeze the last bit of "spin" out of every word associated with any given subject, not to mention high placed politicians who create complex definitions out of the blue to suit their own needs. I guess we've come to expect (hope?) that words really mean what they say, and we embrace the opportunity to take them at face value. Unfortunately, we often find ourselve holding the smelly end of the stick.
AMERICO -- Too literally? I don't really know how to answer that. Perhaps we do. If we do, perhaps it's a backlash from a legal system that exploits our language in order to squeeze the last bit of "spin" out of every word associated with any given subject, not to mention high placed politicians who create complex definitions out of the blue to suit their own needs. I guess we've come to expect (hope?) that words really mean what they say, and we embrace the opportunity to take them at face value. Unfortunately, we often find ourselve holding the smelly end of the stick.
Hello everyone,
Teekay,
I hope the cookbook project doesn't become a "phase" in my life. It will depend on how much cooperation I get from the members.
Howard,
I read the two chapters you posted in the novel section. I absolutely loved it. It is very visual and imaginative. Since it was chapter eight and nine or like that, the characters were a little dim but that was not the book's fault. The lack of typos and grammer mistakes made me feel the need to go back over my manuscript. Keep it up and please post more.
I just noticed the 'Railroad Crossing' sign from across the street was laying in my front pasture.(from the train-van wreck a week ago) The post is a little bent but other than that it's in pretty good shape. Tomorrow I'm going to call the sheriff's dept. to find out if anyone wants it back. That should be an interesting experience.
Writing can be a mystical experience.
Rosemary
Teekay, no problem I didn't think that was what you meant. I would send you some of these happy pills, but I think the Gov would be a bit upset me sending such things through the mail, as they are restricted you know.
Jerry
JERRY: That's what I meant. Now we are seeing the real you without the boundaries of pain. Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought you were on mind altering drugs, I guess it could have been taken like that Ha ha.
Teekay - I don't think my personality has changed all that much, just the return of my old self. The pills do a nice job of reliving the pain that has been so strong and steady for over five years. Probably the release from the pain has allowed me to express myself a bit better, thank you for noticing.
Jerry
Litter,
Thank you for sharing the Cannon of the Church of England. I think that is a perfect perspective in regard to the Harry Potter books. My daughter is a Christian and has read the first one and has found nothing to fault with it.
In the literal sence such people who object to Harry Potter books would have trouble with much of the writings of C.S. Lewis and even George MacDonald, books with Christian themes but with an occasional ghost or so.
I have lived with this crap since being a parent. I have constantly heard how Disney movies such as THE LITTLE MERMAID and THE LION KING have satanic themes and are bad for children. I have also heard teaching claiming that Grimm's Fairy Tales sets children up for the Occult. I have also heard the evils of POKEMON. I have come to the conclusion that anything which kids like is offensive to some.
I have had numerous discussions with my children about what is make-believe and what is real. Somewhere along the line children and adults must know where to draw to line between figurative and factual. I am afraid there are too many adults that have never learned.
Americo,
I agree with you completely. Many Americans do read too literally. Also too many Americans do not read analytically and critically. My mother, a high school English teacher, ofter remarked about that. There is much more to reading than reading the words off the page.
Oh, and in my list I forgot to mention Hayden and his Porche.
Jack,
My thoughts go with you and your family.
Jerry,
The magazine put out by FOCUS ON THE FAMILY had an article on Christian hoaxes a few months ago. I think the letter you posted would qualify. I am sure you have heard the story of the scientists in Siberia who drilled a three mile deep hole and heard people screaming from it--damned souls in hell. I have known people who have swallowed that unlikely story, hook, line and sinker. The story about the NASA scientist who discoverd a missing day and a few hours is another such hoax. There are several such urban legends. These stories serve to make Christian believers look ignorant and stupid. People should learn not to be so gullible. I found out this the hard way when I called my congressman after getting an e-mail claiming there was a house bill considered that would tax all e-mail. Imagine my embarrasment when the congressional aide informed me there was no truth to it. Worse still, I had forwarded that e-mail to other people. I had to eat humble pie, e-mail those people and admit I screwed up.
Happy writing,
Rhoda
HALLEE & JERRY: Left some comments in the short story section.
(warning) the continuation.......................
JACK: (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
A celebration of life, what a wonderful thing to call it.
Critics, I can't abide by 'em. Lot of dang cods wallop if you ask me. Look at what they said about Enid Blyton's books!!!!!! I absorbed Enid Blyton's books through the pores when I was a kid.
If there is evil in ones mind it will make itself shown in every little thing.
Okay, well now I'm going to brush away the cobwebs and make my way to the workbook and read some shorties and then if all goes well I'm going to make a start on my shortie.
Seeyers.
Morning All,
I was going to try and get through reading all the posts and then responding from memory until I got to MARY's and thought better of it.
RACHEL: I have a sort of confession to make, well it's not really a confession it's really just a shameful little secret. Ha ha, not really. Look now I've gone and built it all up and now when I tell you it will be all anticlimactical. Okay, well here goes. I really love the name Isador. Of course I could never call my child that because children can be cruel. However second on the list is Isabella, so if that's what you're thinking of then I love it.
I was really horrified to read about those women having abortions because of the sex of the child. Sometimes it's a very scary world we live in.
I was all for knowing the sex. It was the baby I was excited about, wether he had been male or female was irrelevant.
HOWARD: Hi to you too :-)
RHODA & JERRY: I just adore houses with all those hidden secret nooks and crannies with rooms leading in and out of each other (more than once I mean) That's the kind of house where childhoods should be lived because there is just so muc room for adventure.
Happy moving/settling in RHODA, I'm not quite sure what stage you're up to yet.
JERRY I don't know if you're aware of it but your personality has absolutely blossomed. You don't want to be sending any of those pain tablets this way do you?? I could do with a personality makeover. :-)
ROSEMARY: Think of this as a new and challenging phase in your life. A growth thing sort of like a wart. Ha ha. No that was supposed to be an encouraging pep talk but something went horribly wrong.
HALLEE: (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
There's more to come But I had to post this coz funny things just happened and I thought I'd lost it and I nearly had a heart attack. So I'm not taking any more chances with it.
Jerry -- crit in SS critique section of WB.
I typed "Jerry -- " in the blank on posting page, then pasted my crit, which started with "Jerry -- ". so now the crit opens "Jerry -- Jerry -- "
It's all right, Howard. And believe me, there was no provocation.
We must make an effort to speak freely on the NB without being constantly subjected to misinterpretations. The moment I feel I cannot say anything here without strange reactions I'll simply stop posting. I will never accept any constraints to my freedom of speech. Sometime ago I read an interview given by an American writer who complained that the Americans tend to take everything too literally. That does not give a good image of the Americans abroad. Would you like to comment on this, please? (My intention is good).
Howard - isn't it funney how something like this can go so far so quickly? I have often thought of putting together some absolutly fantastic premis, then writting a short emaill about it and send it out to several of my friends, just to see how long it would take to come back to my email box, and what condition the origional story.
As a matter of fact this might make an interesting subject for a short story . . .
Jerry
Arrrr! I just realized that I posted that short stroy in the notebook instead of where it belonged -- in the workbook! I had both open at the time, and crossed hands. Please excuse my bumbling.
AMERICO -- I apologise for coming down so hard on our last exchange - the provocation was not justification for the response. I thought I was mellowing a bit, but I guess not. I'm sorry, friend.
JERRY -- Litter is right on! I heard J.K.Rowling in an interview the other day, and she had apparently heard some of the charges levelled at her by "God's Chosen." She answered them quite adequately, I think. It's true that the subject of witchcraft is quite plainly dealt with (and condemned)in the Bible, but a believer's zeal in dealing with it now does not justify doing so with lies and character assassination. The supposed "quotes" from the children described in the letter more than likely came from the frightened minds of misguided adults. That letter was borne of ignorance and fear, neither of which have a valid place in a believer's life. If a person wishes to not read the books, or to warn against them, then he or she do so simply and truthfully, and not through the shady sensationalist scare tactics used by the tabloids. I personally believe that the "witchcraft" described in these books is nowhere near what was condemned in the Old Testament.
I've read the first H.P. book, and have the other three in my stack. I expect to enjoy them every bit as much as I did the first.
JACK: I would like to extend my deepest sympathies for your family's loss. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Hallee
Ooooops -- the article has been posted beside Jerry's e-mail in the Novel Workbook. Should've said.
Baaaaad Litter!!!
Jack -- my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family at this time. It looks as if your Mother-in-Law had what we Celts call 'a good death'. Your description of the mix of joy and sadness and the family involvement more or less sums this up.
Jerry/All -- The Harry Potter scenario, as described in the mail now residing in the Novel Workshop, makes me want to weep. The perpetuation of false information and libellous remarks in that mail shows, not only that people haven't read the HP books but that they feel free to believe and republish patently false stories and articles if it suits their particular agendas.
I am Christian. I haven't read the HP books myself but I can spot dubious propaganda when I see it. Believe me if the quoted 'London Times Article/Interview' never happened. There would have been hell to pay had Rowling even alluded to the type of remarks she was supposed to have made, let alone come right out and said them to the UK's most respected Newspaper.
Enough already. I have posted a genuine article from an edition of the London Times of last month. The article is written by a Canon in the Church of England and directly addresses the issues of purported Satanic influences in the HP books.
Now I'm off to Amazon to but a HP book or two.
Ciao for now
Litter
I have not yet had the opportunity to read the Harry Potter books, and from all that I have heard, they are wonderful books. Today in my Email, I received a WARNING about these books, which I find borders on censorship, something we as writers should keep an eye on. It came as a forward from my sister, who is a very religious person, she serves as a deacon with her church, and lives the Christian life. I don't think she has ever read any of these books, yet she is spreading such warnings. I shall talk with her about this tomorrow when I see her. If you are interested in the Email, I posted it in the Novel workshop, didn't want to put it in here, and cause unnecessary growth, and since it deals with novels, I felt that the proper location.
Americo, thanks for the crit on my latest, all comments are very welcome.
Jerry
Jerry,
I enjoyed your story "The Hypnotists". I liked it to be called "The Hypnotists" because, though some readers might think there is only one in your story, there are in fact two, the narrator being the second. An example of my theory that a text is only a (pre)text... Do not change the title.
I also liked to see that you are broadening your thematic. Old dead is always a good theme, but all human instincts, like love, lust, hunger, loneliness, perfection ... and other human-related things like laughter, crocuses, the sight of a blueberry cloud, the morning when it turns lilac, the smell of the twilight in South Dakota, the gold medal a Portuguese blindman has just won in the Paraolimpics ... all these and the ten thousand million things life offers us every day are excellent themes for writing.
JACK -- Yes again, our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family at this time. May you all find comfort in the memories she left each one.
howard
Jack,
My deepest regrets and hopes that your life returns to normal soon. We need you here on the NB.
Jack, I will hold you and your in my thoughts and prayers.
Posted my story in the short story workshop, it didn't turn out as I had planned, but made a nice little story none the less. Guess it didn't really turn out as a horror story.
Jerry
p.s. There were many more family members present, but for the last day to day and a half, it was Fran, Genevieve's sister, Fran's cousin and myself. Before that we were awash in family members. Which, I suspect, was one of the reasons she stayed around with us so long. Had to get that quick clarification in.
Hello everyone: It seems this is the last place that I got around to notifying everyone. After around eight days of steadily going down hill and Fran and myself and a cousin doing vigil on Genevieve here at home, she passed away at around 3:50 in the morning on Wednesday. She went peacefully and without apparent pain.
Some comments I should give here on the experience of hospice and sharing the experience of the last days of another human being at home should be said here. It was a gentle and extraordinary experience. Sadness mixed with joy and laughter as we shared our stories of her life and caressed her hand and face and did the other duties necessary in the closing days and hours of another human being's existence on this side.
We will behaving a celebration of her life tomorrow at 11:30 here in Seattle at the church I listed in the URL above. Think of us in that direction at around that time. We have secured the use of a truly phenomenal soloist, metzo sopranno. So, it should be a a fitting tribute for a very wonderful woman. The following week we will be having a memorial service in Corvallis, Oregon, and intering her ashes with her deceased husband. Take care everyone. I am hoping to have time to look over what is happening here sometime next week. All the best.
AMERICO and RHODA -- Great choices! I would add Barbara Garrett and Sqrl to the list as well. Last I heard, Barbara was working as an editor for a magazine.
Americo,
I agree with you on all your choices. I suppose Eddie is busy with his new job. The others just faded away except for Thomas who was hopping mad when he left.
Let's see--I would add
1.) Phillip--a true professional and interesting person, but I realize he is busy with many exciting projects.
2.) S.N.Arly who hacked Thomas off. In outrage, Thomas disappeared and so did S.N. Arly.
3.) Michelle who had interesting perspectives. I have a feeling she was a troubled soul. Oh well, we all have our problems once in awhile. Too bad she left.
4.) Jai, a very good writer and a great guy. I miss his stories on the Workbook. Also he gave some of the best critiques I ever had. He was always good at communicating exactly what he meant when he had a problem with your work.
5.) S.K.S. Perry, another excellent writer with a great future. He was one of the kindest persons ever on here and had a great sense of humor. He also seemed to have an interesting life with his motorcycle and his playing for a band on week-ends.
6.) Goodweed, another talented science fiction writer, who comes here from time to time, but not enough. I miss his level-headedness.
7.) Lydia Sweet. I like to think she is pursuing a lucrative career as a romance writer, for she showed great promise.
There are others too. Most of those who posted when I was new are now gone. I hope I didn't chase them off.
I hope some of these folks do return, Americo. At least I would like to see them pop in and say "Hi."
Rhoda
Rhoda,
You said:
"Americo and Howard, how glad I am to see you two(...)"
That made me think of other people I miss and would like to see on the NB. I'll choose just five (so that the others I'd like to return become jealous and... return).
Pnokio because he is an Irish living in London. My dream would be to live six months in London and six in Lisbon, be Irish (I love their imagination and humour) and be... Pnokio.
Thomas because he his a New Yorker with Italian blood: a good mixture, even if sometimes a bit too explosive.
Hootie because he is a Mormon and I like minorities, except when they try to impose their views on the rest of the crowd — something Hootie never tried.
Eddie because he is so near being a very interesting writer that I feel like giving him a push to the water.
Avatar because this young girl (she's only 17, perhaps 18 now) has an extraordinary imagination and was one of the most original people who have posted here. She and Allein will go far, if they work seriously.
Now perhaps you could add your names to this list of honour.
My best friend's daughter's name is Isabella. It's such a beautiful name, and she's this sweet little baby whose parents are both Hispanic. Very fitting name for her.
I didn't find out the sex of my baby for one reason - I wanted a girl desperately. This was my third pregnancy, and we weren't even sure it would last until term. I was worried that if I found out what the baby was, I would be disappointed if it was a boy. I KNEW that at the moment of birth, when the doctor looks up and says whatever the baby is that at that moment it wouldn't matter, but I was so worried that without being able to touch and hold the baby, that I would spend 5 months disappointed I wasn't having a girl. (I did have a girl..and I ended up losing 2 more so we've quit trying...God pretty much knows what he's doing (smile))
Okay - enough of that. It's almost 5:00 on Friday.
Have a great weekend!
Hallee
Oh for crying out loud, I got all the way down here and now I cant remember what I wanted to say. Oh yes!
RACHEL: I love the name Isabella..as a matter of fact, my little girl's name was going to be Isabella...but when she was born, it just didnt suit her. My first son's middle name is Alexander...so it seems we have the same taste in names!
As far as finding out "early" what your baby's gender is, a lot of people asked me, "Well, dont you want to be surprised?" my response: "I plan on being surprised when they tell me! I will be just as surprised if they tell me tomorrow as I would be if I waited until the little one arrived!" So there ya go......I am all for knowing in advance!
more later...bye
Greetings All,
To start with a bang,
Americo,
I had assumed you excluded the bible because you thought we all read it every day and it would be first on all the lists. I suspect you would have been wrong and I'm not sure if that would be a good or bad thing.
I also think most of us interpret your posts pretty accurately--maybe closer than you would like. I had a comment about our prejudices but some notebookers would never speak to me again.
About that book list, I mentioned Laurel Hamillton's latest book in my list. I had just started it at the time and now at over half way through, I need to issue a warning about it. I have read six or seven of her previous books, a series with Anita Blake, vampire hunter, as the main character. They contained a certain amount of sex scenes but not out of reason. This last book should be rated XXWierd. I'm really surprised the library carries it. Of course, I'm going to finish it anyway.
My Writer's group in which I am the Ways and Means Committee is getting ready to put together a cookbook called "Cooking With a Writer's Inspiration" The members are to submit a receipe with a short story to go with it. I don't think I stole the idea from your roundrobin (forgot the name)but who knows. Anyway, I submitted the Idea and I get to put the whole thing together.
This is a scary thing for a person who almost never volunteers for anything.
Happy times All,
Rosemary
I am currently working on a little horror work myself, but not about unpacking. Not a ghost story, but just a short story to get in the mood for Halloween.
Rachel - I can sure sympathize with you about the room thing. The house we moved from had all kinds of nooks and crannies to store things, and a full basement which was partitioned into rooms, some of which we used for storage also. The one we moved into, while being a wonderful little home, is just that, little. No room for all our "things." Now it is a fight just to find that old photo album, or my high school yearbooks, which have been amongst the missing in action since the move. My wife says she knows exactly where they are, and once I get her new bookcase built, she will dig them out for me. Problem being I can't build the bookcase for her. She is very aware of that fact, and I have made a deal with my good neighbor to have it built, but he has yet to start it. Not that I blame him, as he recently lost his 29 year old son to a stroke, and is still in not over the shock of the loss. So you have my deepest sympathy over your storage problems. Well must get back to my writing, it does feel so good to be back to writing again, I have been putting it off for some time now, since I caught the Keno fever. I have been playing Keno at pogo.com for a few weeks, not that the game is interesting, but the political discussion in the chat area is very habit forming.
Heather - Hum, you seem to have a negative association with the name (grins). You should see the looks on the faces of people when we say Isabella. They give us that, you have got to be kidding look. Then they realize we are not kidding and come around to like it. Seems everybody has an aunt Isabell or Isabella. I don't think that there is one Isabell or Isabella in the school my children attend. Sabastian is also not common in our area. I only know one other Sabastian, he is adorable.
Allein - It's nice to see you ducking in to post again. You must be so busy! I hope that all is going well for you (hugs). Alexander is a name I like. Only trouble is that it is the name of one of our foster son's. I guess that could cause some mix ups, but we will get used to it if it is the name that we decide on. My son wants us to call him Alec. It is a thought. We will see what happens.
I would like to know what sex the baby will be. The hosptials used to tell people the sex of baby, but due to a large number of women who aborted the babies who were not the sex that they wanted the hospitals will no longer tell the sex. If they can see what the baby is, then they will tell your doctor and if your doctor feels that you are not the sort of person who would rush out and do in your baby if it is not a certain sex, then your doctor can tell you. However, the doctor will only tell you if it is something that they agree with. Not all doctors agree with people knowing the sex of baby. My doctor told me that if she is told what the sex of the baby is, that she will tell me.
Rhoda - It is nice to hear that you like your new home.
Teekay - Hi you.
All - Hi!!!
AMERICO -- Methinks there's a red herring in Denmark! No one is forcing anyone to share in any prejudices at all. No, you are the one who displayed prejudice, (prejudice is, after all, merely the establishment of boundaries) in setting arbitrary limits in what the rest of us could claim as the last thing we read. Not that that is bad, no, but since you seem to fall back on the "your language vs my language" disclaimer quite often, I thought this might be a good opportunity for enlightenment.
When you use words and phrases such as "extreme susceptibility of some people [in this notebook] to religious or political subjects," and then label their comments as "inadequate or irrelevant," you do (dare we hope unintentionally?) tend to engender visions of the old colonialist, condescending attitudes we all so dearly love to despise.
If you do want to learn to use "our language" (whatever that is) you'll do well to embrace it, warts and all.
I personally think that you probably use it more accurately than I do.
All this is said with no animus whatsoever, and if pressed, I'll deny that I ever said it.
:-)
howrad
Jihads. Let us save those things for our friends in the Middle East. I haven't the time or the inclination for one. All I can say about jihads is that once they are started, the party that has been wronged often becomes more wicked than the party that had wronged them. Jihad is absolutely not a Christian concept though unfortunately Christians have become entangled in them before much to their shame.
Americo and Howard, how glad I am to see you two. And Teekay, Mary, Rosemary, Sasquatch, Hallee, Christi, Mark, Arik, Jerry Lee, the other Jerry, Jack, Rachel, Heather, Tina, Allein, Litter, Ashling, Debra, Gary, and to whomever I missed (therein lies the danger of listing everyone here, because you always miss somebody).
I do not know about ghost stories, but I could write a good horror story about my unpacking experiences. Houses with many closets and lots of storage are a wonderful thing until you have to leave them. Ugh. This new house is bigger than the other but has much less space to put things. I think it is time for another garage sale. Why can't I be like any other self-repecting nomad and be content with a tent and only enough possessions that can be carried on a horse?
Americo,
I do love my new house despite the lack of storage. I just have to buy new bookcases for all of my books.
Happy writing,
Rhoda
I think a McGuffin is rather like a red herring, as Jeffery Archer might say. It's something that re-appears suddenly, and then disappears, offering readers some intrigue, if not a slight tease. It may be obscure, or seemingly trite, or may not seem to fit quite right. It is also something you are more or less looking for underneath the main story line. The subtext, or a particular aspect of the subtext. (not to be confused with subplot!)
Subtext, you say? Kind of like an undercurrent of subtle thought-trains or connections, or what your readers read 'in between the lines'. That's one of the things that I have been painstakingly creating in my novel, hoping that by specifically seeking and creating it, it won't be totally obvious. Shakespeare was a Master at subtext. I'm on the slightly desperate side of subtextual studentry, but I find that the knowledge of what subtext can do, by reading and gleaning ideas, is all I needed to understand what I've already been trying to do that whole time!
(Unwrap that statement, find a prize!)
Have to run, gobble some Sudafed (tm) and attempt to get a few things ready for visitors...
Head too large for me Heather
Howard,
My asking people to discount the Bible from the books they are reading did not have any provocative intention. It was the same as asking people not to include in their list the books they are reading at school or their daily e-mail. Knowing the extreme susceptibility of some people to religious or political issues, and wishing to preserve the peace of the Notebook, I avoided answering comments which I considered inadequate and irrelevant to the question I put. I'm glad you did not thought of it as sufficently dramatic for starting a jihad...
I take this opportunity to ask people to try to be more accurate in their interpretation of what I write here. It's enough that I am using your language, do not force me to share your prejudices as wel