Archived Messages from January 19, 1999 to January 25, 1999

Michele Mon Jan 25 23:56:18 PST 1999

Oooooh ! Fierce debate raging here !

Rhoda you make me ashamed !! I can't name every English monarch from William the Conqueror to Eliz. II . . . crumbs ! And I can't even make up for my ignorance there by naming every American president . . . I've learnt more American history from talking to email correspondents during the past year than ever before - American history isn't taught in English schools - or at least it wasn't in my day. Hell I didn't even learn about WW1 in school - my school history course quit at the Wars of the Roses !!!!!

S N Arly - you sounded snarly ! No offence but that was a major soapbox stand you did there !

Anyway it's about time I headed for the breakfast table . . . and then I must finish my revision before tomorrow's exam . . . talk to you all later !


Caroline Heske Mon Jan 25 20:59:50 PST 1999

Rhoda - I would guess that Medieaval British history has been around for long enough for people to figure out how to teach it... No, no, I'm not serious. But it is steeped in all those fairy-tales and chivalry stuff you thrive on as a kid - it's very nostalgic. Having learned very little American history, I can't comment re. that. But I can comment re. Australian History. They taught it to us every year in school. 1788 - Captain Cook, 1850 Gold Rush, 20th century - 2 World Wars and Vietnam... As you can imagine, it was pretty superficial and pretty damn boring. Australia has a notorious blind spot for anything in it's history that doesn't sound rough yet somehow rosily character-forming. Australian history ACTUALLY mostly exists of white people fighting black people, and Irish Catholics fighting English Protestants, and Trade Unions fighting Capitalists - however
our wimpy prime minister has declared Black-Armband history to be absolutely off-limits, talks 'multiculturalism' to pacify one half of the population but practices colonialism to pacify the rest, and tries to pretend Trade Unions don't exist (or if they do that they won't in the near future)... Old British history has conveniently left politics and emotional drama behind - modern Australian history hasn't, hence we are only taught what is safe and boring. Perhaps it's the same in America?

S.N.Arly Mon Jan 25 20:50:09 PST 1999

It was once a case where only the wealthy had access to education, through tutors and the like. The rest of us poor slobs couldn't even read. Some say that now only the wealthy can get a good education, and that's a bunch of crap. And this whole ripping on the school system in America is not exactly bright either. Sure some of it could be done better, but there are good reasons for most of what's done and how it's done. I had a couple of really good teachers in my k-12 days. And a couple real nimrods. Most were average. Likewise some had more exciting ways to teach their subjects, and those are the ones I remember most. It was the same when I went on to college, and it's the same in any field anywhere in the U.S.

I wouldn't last in your system Thomas, because 13 is about when school and learning actually started getting interresting to me. I actually started remembering things that might matter some day.

Finally, we send our kids to underfunded schools for the most part (granted some are much better off and others suck). There's often one teacher to 26-35 kids. Kids today, in general not all, aren't disciplined and are a lot tougher to get to pay attention, sit still, follow rules, yadda yadda. Teachers are at the bottom of the pay scale for college trained professionals (just slightly better of than journalists). And we expect them to raise the kids of this country in this atmosphere. And we expect them to get creative while doing it. Many teachers want smaller classes, and specialized classes so the kids who need help with a subject can get it. Many want to continue with PE, music and art becasue all have been proven to stimulate the growth of synapses. There are even correlations between thee and such things as math and science.

The problem really lies in the citizenry, not the teachers or the "system." We consistently vote down educational referrenda, we veto spending, we don't care about anything that we don't see directly effecting us. We don't get involved.

We really are a lot better with the educational system we have, then we would be without it. And the problems are not specific to education. They're everywhere in everything. Until we as a species and population decide we want to make things better, this is just how it will be.

Time to get off the soapbox and get to bed.


Allein Mon Jan 25 20:01:19 PST 1999

Rhoda - I LOVE history. That's the one subject in school that I don't mind learning (that and foreign language). Plus, my teacher is really nice. He's teaching me things about history (American) that I never knew before. We get to have class discussions about current event and see how they paralell to other events in history - actually, I'd say at least the first quarter was spent discussing Pres. Clinton and what's happening now. He assigns a lot of homework (one reason why most people actually don't like him) but I don't mind doing it because it's interesting. He's also a hard grader - but I'm getting a B in the class so I'm happy. :)

Bye bye,

"My dream is to have two men - one cooking and the other cleaning..."
- Keychain in a store at the mall (put here for no reason, other than I thought it was kinda cute, but really, I would only have one man and we'd split the chores).

Rhoda Mon Jan 25 18:58:13 PST 1999

Why does everyone find American history so dull? Why is European history (espacially British) so thrilling? I found this to be true. I can name every British monarch from William the Conqueror to Elizabeth II, but I can't name every American president. I never had an American history class or an American government class that I didn't want to fall asleep in. Could this explain why Americans are so darn ignorant of their history and their process of government?

Is American history poorly taught or is it REALLY dull? Perhaps the Europeans and the ancient empires have more panache than we Americans. Michele and Eddie, do you think your own history more exciting than American history? I always thought that people tend to take their neck of the woods for granted and find excitement in the exotic and faraway places. Perhaps America is a relatively new country? That is why we are so dull. Austrailia and Canada are fairly young also. Jai, Caroline, S.K.S. , do you find your history dull compared to European and ancient?

These questions are of no monumental importance. I'm just curious.

Happy writing!


Lena Mon Jan 25 17:44:52 PST 1999

Hey, Thomas, I hate to ask, but what do you expect these teenagers of yours to do in your no-school scenario? I have this feeling many would be holed up in their rooms, but they wouldn't exactly be reading... unless there is a bad pun I missed somewhere in there. ;-)

I didn't like Hemingway either. Too dry. Whitman, however, was silly. I especially loved the poem where he is comparing the twig of a tree to, truth here, "manly love." Some of Walt's poems are decent, but most are pitiful. If anybody out there happens to like "Leaves of Grass", I apologize, but I do not see the artistry or the meaning behind many of his poems.

"I loaf, and invite my soul..."

Thomas Mon Jan 25 17:27:44 PST 1999


Sorry. The same way kids are told today that they must go to school, under my system they cannot go to school after they reach 13. I never said my system was democratic. But then, if you believe that even the bad stuff can be used later in life as a learning experience, the 13 year-old who wants to go to school but is not allowed will be better for it at a later age. Hey, maybe we can go on with scenarios under this fantasy!

I shall look into Penman as reading time opens up for me. I like fictional history too -- it sometimes is a good alternative to the real stuff.

As for Whitman...I think you have to understand American History, and especially New York history, to appreciate what he was talking about, not that I am a fan -- not that I am not -- just a possible explanation for your feelings toward him. Personally, I think Hemingway was a hack with a formula, which is redundant.

Lena Mon Jan 25 16:43:49 PST 1999

A fair day to all!

Okay, since I already had my chance to moan and complain about the school system, here's my slightly less negative view of schooling.

The school system is just as good as you make it. I always try to remind myself that teachers have knowledge that I can learn, so why not let them teach it? They might not be very good at imparting their knowledge, but it is there for the taking if you want it. For example, I took American Literature last year against my will (I wanted Brit Lit, darn it!) but ended up learning much I would not otherwise know about Hemingway, Twain, Fitzgerald, and Whitman... okay, Walt Whitman is a laughable poet and I have no idea why people think his poems are good, but anyways, don't even get me started on ole' Walty... so the class did me some good. You may not like it at the time, and it may not be taught well, but the information is there.

What needs to be changed is the way things are taught in our schools. The curriculum and teaching methods need to be improved, in order to spark interest. I just finished a major paper on curriculum so I did some extensive research on the subject, and I have found the school system just needs rearranging (at least here in America, but, judging from the posts, the sentiment seems to exist all over) and reevaluation.

As for teaching you how to think... you may not think that schools did much for you, but the worthless little things you were taught help to form what we consider a "well-educated person." All of the little things come together and help to (hopefully) teach you how to think.

On bad teachers - I had an English teacher in sixth grade who... well, let's just say the animosity was mutual. I got my only C in her class, and she completely destroyed any confidence I had in my writing. It took me almost four years, and several very good English teachers, before I even began to believe my writing was any good. It's scary how much power teachers have over kids, how much potential they have to create and destroy.

Thomas - I am way behind in my reading at the moment, but I'll try to find some of Barbara Tuchmann's work. If you want to branch off a bit from non-fiction, Sharon Penman (I think that's her name, let me double check on that) writes some very good historical fiction dealing with various Plantagenet kings. Good stuff.

Allein - I agree, too much homework.

Thomas - What happens to the kids who actually want to continue their education while they're a teenager? If given the choice, I would probably hole myself up in my room and just read all the books I could, occasionally stopping to write my own stuff, but the question remains.

I just finished "The Red Badge of Courage," am currently reading "A Song for Arbonne" and "The Last Unicorn," and hope to read "Catch-22" and "Red Branch" next. Too many books, so little time!

Too many men, so few recipes!

Oh, did I say that? Sorry! <>

You see how I tend to babble? Somebody tell me to stop...! Yesch!

Goodweed of the North Mon Jan 25 16:05:44 PST 1999

IMHO, U.S. schools prepare you to make someone else wealthy, to work for a subsistance living, to knuckle under those who pull the strings. That is my opinion. I have to say that I did enjoy some of my teachers who attempted to teach us, and nurtured creativity. They were few.

As to old computers, how about writing in ATLAS on a Varion L100 mini-computer, which used ferrite core memory and a 15" hard disk cartridge with a whopping 15 K of memory capacity. The computer itself had wire-wrap connections on the main video controller card. What a challenge that was. You had three ways to enter data; by paper tape, the huge disk drive, or toggle switches spaced in the front through which you could enter binary-coded-octal. The Vic-20 I later owned was such a power-house by comparison. Yet, we used teh Varien L-100 to run programs which allowed us to test more types of electronics than most people will ever see (over 600 different types of circuit boards with everything from mosfet technology to TTL and ECL. We even had op-amps made from discrete componants).

My four year old Pentium 60mhrz w/20 meg of ram and 1 gig of hard drive would have taken up an entire room, or more back then (1975).

Well, I've just aged myself for you. Of course I was a 6 year old prodigy sailor and am only 30 years of age now (want to buy some prime acreage on the moon? Going cheep for $19.95).

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North

Allein Mon Jan 25 15:55:53 PST 1999

School - What I really hate about it is finals and homework. Finals are self explanitory. Homework, well, there's just too much of it. One of my friends says she stays up sometimes until two or three in the morning doing homework and then has to get up at six thirty to go to school. I think that our school should really have a homework period so we can get it done.
Another thing is that, at least here, you have to take certain class and have to have so many kinds of credits - 4 English, 2 Math, 1.5 vocational...and so on. It drives me nuts. Especially the two for sports (or PE as it's called here). Why do we even HAVE sports? Can't they take into consideration the people (like me) who absolutely hate sports and, by the way, are just plain no good at them!! Another thing I hate is that if you don't get into the class you wanted, they assign you a class. I wanted Shakespere One for my English class (I love English and history). But, I didn't get in, so did I choose the next class I wanted. No, of course not. They put me in American Literature. The class is so boring that sometimes I feel like screaming my head off and running out of there (it's just a good thing that by the time it's that boring, I'm nearly in a coma - that way, I don't get in trouble for truancy). But, anyway, I have three more days and then I'm out of there!! Yippie!!!

Well, I've blown off my amount of steam for the day.
Have a SMILEY day!! :)

Michele Mon Jan 25 11:32:32 PST 1999

Thomas - that sounds like a damn fine fantasy to me - wow ! You could count me in on that one !

SKS Perry - I have to agree about the need for breaks between blocks of learning - I am gasping for my mid-semester break (starts Weds. unofficially - Monday officially !) . . . just so I can kick back and reflect on what I've learned so far. I know I get more out of what I learn by spending time thinking about it - and it's hard to do that during the relentless weekly grind of reading and assignments - besides I think slowly !

No Canada isn't alone in its budget cuts hitting the extras - the same is true of state-funded schools - I thought it was just our lousy goverment !

Anyway I have to go revise (AGAIN !!!!!) . . . I'll keep sneaking back to read further though !

Roll on WEDNESDAY 10.30 am - my exam will be over and I will off to PARTY !!!


S.K.S. Perry Mon Jan 25 09:32:38 PST 1999

Hey all,

Thomas, Your idea sounds great, even if it would put me out of a job!

Rachel, Sorry about the misunderstanding. I guess I got that impression because that's exactly what they're talking about doing in my area--year round school without all the breaks. Your system sounds great and seems a lot easier on everyone involve--kids and parents.

On the down side of things, I just received a rejection letter for Wet Ware in the mail this morning. One of those form rejection letters that tell you all the things that possibly may have been wrong with your story. Oh well, that's the first one for Wet Ware--time to send it on to the next publisher.

Be Well, Live Well.

Thomas Mon Jan 25 09:18:02 PST 1999

Hey all,

Since I believe Michele and I started this school rage thing, let me give you my vision of education.

Children should go to GOOD schools with GREAT teachers (in deference to SKS, from September through April) until about the eighth grade (13 years old?). If they haven't learned the basics yet, they are in trouble.

Then, they should be allowed to run free until about seventeen, when their brains have matured to the point where they might be interested in real-world education. So they get their high school education, where they begin to learn to think -- four years. Then society should give them a paid vacation until they are twenty-five. Then they should go to college part time (for theory) and to work part time (to apply the theory -- or to shoot holes in it) for about four years. After that experience, they are approaching thirty and they have done much of everything -- they will know a lot about life, which is what education really ought to be.

Oh, I forgot. No one should serve in the military, anywhere in the world. That ought to put a dent in war!

Should I submit thsi fantasy to a magazine?

Rachel Mon Jan 25 09:01:49 PST 1999

SKS - I think you have misunderstood year round schooling. It does not mean that they attend for the full year with no breaks, it means that the breaks are different to avoid the long inturuption in learning through the summer. The children have a month off in April, August and December. This works very well, the children never get bored with their vacation time and they don't get all wound up before they go off for summer, because they have just had a month in April. It just sort of evens things out.

I think they call it year round because they plan to introduce optional vacation months. I think the next track will run March, July and November.

I think this is a great system and offers parents a fighting chance to take their kiddies on vacations longer than the weekend. Lots of people can't get a day off through July, August and the end of December. This schedual allows for different options. Also its a lot easier to find daycare for kiddies from family and friends for only four weeks, but when you get into the 8 to 10 week range you will likely have run out of options.

WOW! I am not a total hard *#!. Even I would not put my children into school for the entier year. Although I have to admit that even in the summer I encourage them to read every day and if they don't want to read then I get really funky books and read to them. When we camp is when they get the made up stories and these they love. Dan and I take turns. I think fireside stories might just be the best part of camping.

Hope I cleared up the year round school thing.

Take care all

S.K.S. Perry Mon Jan 25 08:34:36 PST 1999

Hey all,

I've always had a lot more problems with the school system besides their inability to teach people to think. So let's come at it from a different angle, shall we?

First off, I'm afraid I have to disagree with Rachel about that year round schooling thing. While it may be beneficial from an educational point of view (though I'm not willing to concede that either) it is as unnatural as forcing children to be in school in the first place. To take a child full of boundless energy and force him to sit at a desk for eight hours a day while shoving inane information down their throats is cruel and unusual punishment. I can still remember staring out the windows at school during may, when everything was green and flowering and it was hot and sunny outside, and going stir crazy because I was trapped in class. Believe me, I doubt I heard anything the teacher said, no matter how interesting the subject. Maybe this is a Canadian thing, where summer has a lot more meaning for us after the restrictions imposed by five or six months of the snow, ice and cold of winter..

Having spent several years as an instructor in the Military, let me tell you that nothing ups the learning curve like a break. After a couple of months of dry electronic theory (no matter how appetizing the instructor tried to make it) the students needed time to suck back and reload. They usually got about a month between blocks of instruction, and they always returned refreshed and better able to handle what we threw at them. And remember, these are adults I'm talking about here. I can only assume the effect is the same on children.

Secondly, I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Canada the education system has been hit hard by budget cuts. One of the first things to go were the so called "extras"--things like gym classes, art, theatre and music. I'm not saying that they've totally done away with these classes, but they have been downscaled considerably. When I went to High School, gym was mandatory for the first two or three years. Now it's optional.

With this kind of learning environment it's no wonder our kids would rather play Nintendo than football. And it's also no wonder that many of them lack in imagination. I learned to be creative at play when I was a child. We created our own worlds and characters and then lived in them. I think that time away from school is as important or maybe even more important than time spent at school.

And let's face it, if the real objective of school is to teach people how to think--as most of us here agree--how long does that take? Twelve years? Plus secondary school? I don't think so.

Why are we in such a hurry to force this confinement on our children anyway--they have plenty of time to be chained to the desk and the clock when they become adults

Be Well, Live Well.

Michele Mon Jan 25 06:23:26 PST 1999

This is one heck of debate raging on schools. Guess I'm lucky to have been in good educational establishments here in England - although I'm glad I don't have school age kids because the national curriculum is a major pain ! I guess I was also helped at school by a desire to learn (I've always been weird that way !!) - that helped me cope with the boring bits although I don't remember there being TOO many of those. I was very fortunate when I changed schools at 11 and I got a History teacher who made the Ancient Greeks seem like your neighbours - she also taught us the Greek alphabet and art as well as history ! Later on I had a really good English teacher who also made all books seem really interesting (but then I am a CHRONIC bookworm !) - I guess it's partly because of the enthusiasm of those 2 in my "formative" years that I am now doing English and History at University level !

On the subject of Barbara Tuchmann, her "August, 1914" is highly recommended, as is anything by Lynn MacDonald, also Martin Gilbert and Peter Hennessey (who's dad I knew) . . . don't get me started on good books - I'll be here for hours when I ought to be REVISING history !!! :-)

Talk to you all later,


Thomas Sun Jan 24 18:03:38 PST 1999


If you haven't heard of Barbara Tuchman (spelling?) you should look into her books. One that comes to mind is The March of Folly. Her history writing is incomparable, and she has done extenisve work on the Middle Ages. Makes history seem like just what it is: the story of humanity.

Some might disagree with me on this, but I also think that Gore Vidal's books on historical figures and events are done quite well: Lincoln, Burr et al. Not always accurate, but enough to give a true feel of what historical figures had to face, and Vidal's irreverance is always refreshing.

Rachel Sun Jan 24 17:14:58 PST 1999

Schools - Hum, well. I have to tell you I have the most amazing luck in the world. Or maybe when you've lived face first in the dirt most of your life, getting to your knees so you can at least see the sun makes you feel like the luckiest person alive each and every day.

Anyhow my children have the advantage of getting to attend what I am convinced is likely the best school in our district. It is run on an alternative year round schooling system, so everyone who attends there has made a concious decision to do so. Hopefully based on the fact that they believe that it is a good idea to have a more continual style of schooling without the long break in the summer to interrupt the learning process.

I could go on for days about how great the school my children go to is. I am greatly relieved that we landed there, as Dan and I had been looking into private schools and trying to think of a way to cover such costs. Yipes!!!!!!! Holy Cash Flow that those people must have. I know, I know some would argue its a priority, but I also want to feed my children not just educate them.

Have to admit that we also take a very active role in our children's learning. We insist on homework and reading times, we limit screen access and outdoor play is not an option. I think children need to do more than live inside a house, or school.

Ha, I am on a bit of a rant here and its because I am ducking out on writing. I'm such a little bug sometimes.

Ah well I better go and dig into a story or two, or three or....

Take care all

Lena Sun Jan 24 16:43:37 PST 1999


Caroline - I recently picked up a book for young adults, thinking it would be a cute little read, and was shocked. Let's just say, that if young girls followed the example in that book, there would be a lot of pregnant thirteen year olds. It was presented in a positive, fairy-tale fashion, giving the message that this is normal and correct, especially if it's with a prince you have exchanged, oh, five total sentences with. Yikes! I just wasn't expecting it, in a book where the main character is twelve/thirteen years old.

Thomas - I am interested in much of the Middle Ages, and more specifically England's history during this time period. Eleanor of Aquitaine, now there was a woman! The American Civil War period is also fascinating, as is ancient history. I enjoy learning about the _people_ involved with history. In fact, I just saw a documentary on the Lewis and Clark expedition last night... did you Meriweather Lewis was a maniac depressive? Now, there's something they don't teach you in history class!

I'm with Jai, the school system sucks. It is a place of "friendly, orderly, uncontentious, wasteful triviality," in the words of the educational reformist Theodore Sizer. If anybody has ever seen the cartoon Daria, that show is so close to real life sometimes it isn't even funny.

Just before starting high school, I applied and was excepted to OSMTech (Oakland Science, Math, and Technology Academy). I go to OSMTech for half of my school day, and return to my regular high school to take my English, history, and elective classes. OSMTech is an amazing school - everyone who is there actually WANTS to be there, and are serious about learning. Not serious (in ninth grade, we did an experiment to see if it was possible to run electricity through my braces... now that was a shock!) but they go to school for a reason. The curriculum is completely integrated, and projects abound. When I compare OSMTech to my regular high school, it makes standard public education seem all the more pitiful.

Then, this year, they tried to close OSMTech down because they said it "wasn't fulfilling the goals," which was complete BS because it was purely a money issue, the school board wanting our tax dollars. I have now learned a total hatred of petty bureaucracies (I knew I had to learn something in school!), little people who have nothing better to do then look out for themselves. Finally, they agreed to let the juniors finish out their senior year out OSMTech, but you know why? My junior year at OSMTech was the equivalent of an honor student's senior year at my regular high school, so my regular school had nothing to offer me. They did not want to pay the college costs to let me continue my education. How's THAT for awful. Grrrrrrr...

Good luck and good times,

Rhoda Sun Jan 24 15:50:23 PST 1999

I am amazed at the high emotions concerning schooling. In all the time I have participated in this notebook, I can't remember one subject that has struck such a chord.

I am tempted to add my war stories, but being the emotional sort of woman I am, I shall refrain. Like Toby, I could rant for pages on this one myself. Judging by Caroline and Jai's comments this is not an American thing as I have always thought.

I can only say that though I think American education has gone mostly down the drain, like Jai I have seen some rays of hope. During my high school and college years I have been blessed to have some wonderful teachers who challenged me, yet encouraged me. So many of them loved the topics they taught and so passed their enthusiasm onto me. Thankfully I remember those individuals over all the other ones.

I have to applaud my parents. In those situations where the schools wished to do something detrimental to me or one of my brothers, my parents intervened. My eighth grade councilor wanted me to take a middle lane in High School where I wouldn't have much math and little preparation for college. My parents cried bloody murder and insisted I be put in the college lane. The councilor did not dare disagree. Incidently, I graduated High School with something around a 3.6 and could enter any college I wanted. All through my schooling my parents helped make up the gaps. They tutored me and worked with me and held me accountable on my school work and grades. I did have the advantage that both of them were teachers.

My children go to private Christian school. I had enough bad experiences with the public school that I am happy to make the investment in private school. My 10 year old will be going to public school next year, but I have no qualms because Perryton Schools are very good. The teacher to student ratio is 14. I also know many of the people who teach in the system. For my younger two, I'll keep them in Christian school a few more years while they learn their basics. If I could not afford private school, I would consider home schooling depending upon where I lived. I just think that where ever your child goes to school, a parent must always be there as my parents were, knowing what is going on and being involved.

Happy Writing!


Caroline Heske Sun Jan 24 15:12:55 PST 1999

Jai - I think we may have a lot in common... Stress? Teachers more interested in power-games than teaching? Pathetic curriculum? In Yr 12? *manic laugh* What are you talking about? Don't even get me STARTED on that! But, anyway, I survived it, and am about to start 2nd year - but hey, let's look on the bright side - with an itsy bitsy less government funding, we won't even HAVE secondary schools.

Hmm... I remember doing LOGO in class (but only to do graphics). We had a Commodore 64 at home, and I used to teach myself BASIC on that - but then, there's only so much you can figure out when you don't even know what an integer is. So I sort of got bored and gave up at about Yr 9.

NOTE: The following is NOT intended to rescuscitate the censorship debate. It is purely a practical question. If you want to get a novel for teenagers published, what level of swearing will editors accept? For instance, is 'screwing' too strong?

Jai Sun Jan 24 15:02:45 PST 1999


I had a great weekend :). Appoligies Caroline, I now see you have finished school.


Jai Sun Jan 24 13:52:17 PST 1999

Warning -- The following peice of writing may contain strong or graphic words that could offend some readers. Rated RWC - Read With Caution.

Email is down ( agian ) :(

Don't even get me started on schools. Too late. I may have commited suicide in year 10 ( or at least been a very F**ked up individual ). If I hadn't left mainstream schooling in year 9. I managed to find an alternative school in which you learnt to learn. The School Without Walls ( SWOW ) was similar to it's more famous cousin Summer Hill. We learnt what we wanted to learn and we only learnt because we wanted to learn. If anyone has the chance to send their children to an alternative school of some sort I highly recomend it. Unfotunatly ( tragicly ) the goverment closed the school after 20 years. Something that will forever ache inside me. It was much more than a school, it was a home. So I never learned grammar ( SKS :) ) but I did alot of creative writing and I have time for grammar now and no hangups about teaching myself. I did get the chance to delve into some very interesting things, like Massage and yoga ( yes at high school ).

Caroline Heske - Dammit move. Not all states have the HSC, Canberra, where I live has a much simpler and more logical system ( in my humble opinion ), in which most of your score is based on your actual grades from your work and a simple IQ type test is used as a comparive grade between schools. I believe Queensland and Western Australia are similar, so if you have any relitives that you like in those places or are feeling adventurous ( and haven't already completed your year 12 ) then move, and avoid the stress, it won't help you any.

I hate ( and dad, that is not too strong a word! ) main stream schools, I hate them. I hate the dry lifless substance they teach, I hate the us/them attitude that most teachers foster and I hate the lack of support, the friendship and caring. I hate the inequality, I hate compeditivness that is encouraged so strongly. There is many more things I hate but I'll leave it at that.

OK, so you know what I'm passionate about ( besides writing of course ), now don't bring up schools agian.................... Ohh I SUPOSE it's OK, just not too often.

Sorry if this tirad offened but there has to be some things in life a man (or woman) is prepared to die for and the schooling of teenagers is for me that thing.

Caroline Heske - Thankyou for the link to Sara Douglass's page, I also played around on apple IIe's at school though not at home, I do remember carmon sandiago and the green screens. I even wrote a program or two on those old dinosours.

So learn to love learning in friendship and equality,

Jai Shaw
* Big Deep Sigh *

Sun Jan 24 12:12:01 PST 1999

Me and my great typing skills. That was supposed to be as much as, not ass much as.


S.N.Arly Sun Jan 24 12:09:57 PST 1999

Caroline - That sounds like what I went through in college. Most of my HS classses didn't have finals (physics and electronics did, and sometimes English). You can't be real subjective with physics or electronics, so... Once I hit college I had some trouble with that and I had to live with it. Didn't like it, and it doesn't seem fair. But when you have no control, I guess you have to make ass much as you can with the tools you get.

Thomas - Character, letters... ha ha! Yah, I'm the former journie, here. The story... well it sort of hit home. I ran into the same sort of thing in college. I guess they wanted us to be prepared for paying through the nose before we became big famous reporters. HA!


Caroline Heske Sat Jan 23 21:55:26 PST 1999

Regarding schools and (un)enlightening teachers: I don't know if anyone else here lives in Victoria, but we have a really irritating final school-year assessment system. You take 4-6 subjects, and in each subject you have to do 2 essays and an exam, or one essay and two exams. The exams are fine, but the essays (which they call CATs) are a pain in the butt. They are marked only by your teacher (though in some subjects there is double-marking), which means everything is highly subjective, and you get six or eight weeks to do it, which means you learn one little thing - then spend hours and hours agonising about word-limits (which you're meant to get approx. within 10 words accuracy of) and presentation, and the comments which you either don't understand or seem to make no sense (and your teacher has no time to explain). You get no chance to cram, and kids with more money hire tutors to write their essays. Anyway, these marks go off to the Board of Studies (which is now located on a high-security army camp since someone tried to blow it up), who types them into the computer, along with the 40 000 other VCE students in the state, and when all your marks for all subjects in, gives everyone a ranking, from best to worst. (However, if you're in the bottom 20% they don't give you your exact ranking cause apparently too many people were suiciding). And this ranking determines which uni you'll go to, which is rather important, cause if you don't go to uni you're virtually not even qualified to work in a fish&chip shop.

Is this an Australian thing, or is it the same the world over?

Allein Sat Jan 23 21:01:21 PST 1999

Rachel - don't worry, we're all entitled to our spazzes and believe me, I'm going to be having my entitlement for the year next week - finals. :p

Bye bye all,

Rachel Sat Jan 23 18:47:07 PST 1999


What a day. The old landlord came by unexpectedly and came in for a little look about with an appraiser friend of his. I was in horror! I am a clean house freak, but have been a little caught up in writing and stuff so my sofa is lost under a mountain of clean laundry and I have an equal size pile behind my bedroom door. I got the pleasure of showing them my room with its unmade bed and towel strewn bathroom. ACK!

As I run them thru the house I'm rambeling on about writing and how busy I'v been. I think they spent more time looking and laughing at me than the house. I can get pretty animated and I'd say I was in high gear, arms going face making twenty faces per second.

Adding to this is the room that we built in the garage and neglected to mention. I was happily still not off the computer when he discovered this little surprise. You know the old saying. Its easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Lucky for us he likes the room, which we built so that it can be removed in three tidy little sections. Little, who am I kidding its big, but it can be removed.

Oh well just needed to have a little spaz out and am now feeling much better.

Take care all and happy writing.

toby b Sat Jan 23 13:54:18 PST 1999

As for someone who has gone through both British and American schooling, I would like to recommend the British. I cannot understand how American teachers put up with the absolute lack of respect, the crap, the bland uniformity they are encouraged to promote, and the emphasis on passing for now and not learning.

If I ever have children, I would go out of my way to either find them a private school in America, or move.

I could rant on this one for pages. So I won't. I'll go away now.

Michele Sat Jan 23 12:20:26 PST 1999

Well of course I can't answer for the American teaching system but at my college here in the UK, you are encouraged to think for yourself, do research and present your arguments without someone standing there spoon-feeding everything into you (I'm talking History here - I don't know about other subjects and English is a different matter).

And I go about 2 hours of useful revision done (could have been better but it could have been much worse !!)

Talk to you again . . .


Thomas Sat Jan 23 09:28:07 PST 1999


Precisley my point. Dates are dates, names are names, facts are (sometimes) facts, bias is bias, but thinking is boundless.

Luckily, most of us remember the rare wonderful teacher somewhere along the way, the one who really made an impression.


My story about the newspaper must be directed to you. I knew it was one of you who once talked about being a journalist. Indicentally, that is New York and not New Yor -- the city is losing its character but not its letters.

S.K.S. Perry Sat Jan 23 08:52:41 PST 1999

Hey all,

Thomas, I was never a journalist, although it was something I had considered. Having heard the horror stories from various people here though, I'm glad I never pursued that career.

As to higher education, I've always felt that schools spent too much time downloading facts (as inaccurate or biased as they may be) and not enough time teaching you how to think and learn for yourself. Even in college, once I had teachers who would go into why things happened the way they did, generally they spouted their version of how it all went down, and to get a passing mark you pretty much had to agree with them. I did have a few good teachers who gave me full credit for disagreeing with them and backing my arguements up with valid points and research. One even asked my permission to take my idea and run with it.

Though I agree there is a basic level of knowledge required by most people--math, english (spelling and grammar), geography, and the sciences--real education begins when you start to think for yourself.

S.N. Arly, Ok, usually...frequently...mostly?(blush!)

Be Well, Live Well.

Thomas Sat Jan 23 08:39:18 PST 1999


When you get Nestcape working right please let me know the secret.


Always exceptions to the rule, or what else would make life so much fun? My bent is that, in general, unless you are a history major, the education system in America provides dates, places and names and little in the way of understanding why things happened. I hear, however, that in some cases, things are getting better, at least for history lessons. Maybe England has a better history-teaching method! Hope you got through the 19th century European stuff well enough.


The eeny, meany, miney, moe method is definitely the preferred among editors -- emphasis on MEANY.
Was it you who used to be a journalist? If so, you'll love this story.
I write freelance for a small newspaper dedicated to the wine industries of New Yor, New England and Virginia. The publisher invited me to Boston this weekend to attend, and to cover, a massive international wine weekend. I was offered a press pass to get in, the hotel and travel was to be on me, and the pay for stories -- well, you know what that is at newspapers -- wouldn't have covered my meals for two days. What nerve! As you can see, I am home instead of in Boston.

S.N.Arly Sat Jan 23 07:37:46 PST 1999

Leigh - we sorta covered this a couple days ago, but... The answer is, age is irrelevant. And I never needed parental permission. Also keep in mind, as SKS mentioned, there's no need to advertise your age in a cover letter. People still consider me too young to know what I'm doing and I've been writing seriously for 14 years.

SKS - Only sometimes?

Who still hasn't quite got Nestscape working right.

Goodweed of the North Sat Jan 23 07:32:32 PST 1999

S.K.S.; You have gobs of talent. I echo the thoughts of others here. Keep at it. You are one who will get published.

Seeeeya; Goodweed

Michele Sat Jan 23 07:13:34 PST 1999

History teaching boring ? Depends who's teaching - I have a teacher on late-19th century Europe who knows his stuff but lectures in a monotone ! Fortunately I am interested in the subject ! On the other hand I had two teachers for Elizabethan England (which I wasn't *that* interested in intially) who are *SO* enthusiastic I got interested despite myself ! So it just goes to show - you need a good teacher, an enthusiasm for the subject and an aptitude and then you hit pay dirt !

Anyway this is *NOT* getting my revision done !!! So I will away reluctantly and revise.

Thomas I can't really agree with you on that one.


(Oh and major kudos - my web site got listed twice this week - by the BBC Education site's Web Guide and by Rhoda ! *grins* ! Thanks Rhoda !)

S.K.S. Perry Sat Jan 23 06:08:19 PST 1999

Hey all,

Thanks for all the support concerning the whining I did earlier. To tell the truth, the author I mentioned really did seem to be a nice guy. Like I said before, it was just jealousy that prompted my post, and as Thomas so wisely put it, jealousy is a real waste of emotions. There are so many other emotions that are a lot more fun, like glee, or love (and sometimes even lust!)

As to the age thing. Maybe I'm doing it all wrong, but I don't recall anywhere in any guidelines to publishers that I've submitted to where they ask me for my age or date of birth. All they usually want to know is word count, name, complete mailing address, phone number, and E-mail address if you have it.

Why state your age. Let them judge your story on its merrit, (if that is in fact how they choose stories--I'm begining to believe they use the enny-meany-miny-moe method myself.)

As to having to be eighteen, the only reason I can see for that is that you may have to be eighteen in order for the contracts to be legal.

Oh yeah, I think about the only really usefull thing I ever learned in high school was how to type!

Be Well, Live Well.

Caroline Heske Fri Jan 22 21:50:38 PST 1999

Leigh - I have had SO many people tell me not to put my age on submissions - not to lie, but rather to hint that I'm 30+, because too many editors inevitably jump to conclusions. I have sent very few submissions to anywhere, but when one was accepted, and they found out that I was (then) fourteen, they rang up my school principle to check if I was lying. They were wondering whether I'd nicked the story off the net or something, I suppose (which I hadn't)... so there you go. So no, you're not being paranoid, and I figure you mostly have to pretend you're older, or work through youth-oriented writing groups (which seem to be dominated entirely by poets, not a bad thing in itself, but a bugger if you're a novelist)

SKS - I know what you mean... But hey, relax, take the scene out of focus, and conjure up the day when it's YOU standing up on that stage with Naejin. It WILL happen.

Typewriters - I went to a girls' school, and they still had a 30s hangover where we had to learn cooking and sowing and touch-typing. I still resent the first two, but I have been eternally grateful for the latter. We had to do books and books of silly typing drills fgf gfg ggff etc. etc., and we got detentions if we looked at the keys, or if they caught us deleting our mistakes. At any rate, they got so paranoid about our accuracy, that they bought typewriters and removed the correction paper just so we couldn't delete our mistakes. They were electric, so they keys weren't too hard to press down, but they still were slow and made a terrible noise... and after all, you had terrible trouble if you wanted to go back and add a word in the first line of your piece.

But regarding those old computers, did anyone have to use the Apple 2E's with their green screens, and Dinosaur Discovery, and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? Oh dear, I'm getting all nostalgic.

Jai - Have you read any of Sara Douglass' stuff? I thought I would because she's Australian and writes fantasy (which is pretty rare in itself)... Anyway, I checked out her site, and it's got lots of stuff about how to get fantasy published in Australia (apart from general good tips):
This is the link.

Allein Fri Jan 22 21:43:09 PST 1999

Leigh - welcome. In answer to you, I'm sixteen too and I've also been told I'm too young. I hear that if you're under eighteen, you'll need parental permission to get a story published (I don't remember where I heard this though, so it might not be accurate) but you can certainly do it. There was a girl in my brother's 2nd grade class who got a children's story published. She sent it into a writing contest and a company offered to publish it for her, so, you see, you are never too young to write. Personally, I'm waiting until I'm eighteen, because if the parental permission thing is true, I don't want my parents involved. But, if you want to try and get something published, go ahead and try - I don't think age really matters.

Bye bye for now,

Howard Fri Jan 22 20:27:12 PST 1999

SKS -- the way you write you shouldn't worry about a book signing. You should be thinking about where to spend your royalties, and can you get a part in the movie -- a la Steven King. Time spent grumping about some rich old fart who bought his way in? -- Wasted! But maybe not a total waste -- he sounds like a natural for a spot in an "Undead" episode! Make like an oyster -- turn the irritant into a pearl. Add him to your collection of characters, and trot him out again -- on your terms! I keep a file of characters that bug me, or rub me the wrong way (or are just plain interesting). Sometimes it comes in handy -- that's where Aunt Aggie came from.
I had a book signing at our local Barnes&Noble a few years ago, for an essay I had published. They even took the title of the book -- "Stories Worth Telling" -- from a line in my essay. It's listed in Amazon. Next day I went out and weeded my garden.

Leigh Glanzman-Montano Fri Jan 22 19:20:31 PST 1999

hey, i'm a new here, my name is leigh, and i just have a quick question. is there anyone in the universe who doesn't immediately reject a writer's work simply because she is only sixteen? and i'm not being paranoid, either, i've actually been told that i'm too young to write (which is so way un-right because i kick major rear with my pen!)

Allein Fri Jan 22 18:12:20 PST 1999

Hey all.
Thanks to everyone who's responded to my question. I've gotten some great ideas for gifts, but if anyone else has a suggestion I'd like to hear it.

Finals are next week (insert tortured scream here). So, I'm going to study now.

Bye bye,

Thomas Fri Jan 22 14:23:19 PST 1999

Hello all,

Back from a day of interviewing, and boy do I need a ... I won't say it.

I see the notebook has been on fire again.


Never had the experience but I can sure empathise with your feelings. Have you considered the fact that the retired general decided to write, publish and promote his own book might mean that he did indeed get rejections from publishers and so he did it himself.

That he had the money to self publish is what makes me jealous. But then, jealousy and envy aren't healthy emotions. Maybe we should shoot the guy and be done with it.


What facet or period of history interests you?

I mentor a teenager who needs guidance and just the other day he complained about having to study history. He said he failed his last history test because he forgot why Pontius Pilot killed Jesus. I tried explaining to him that the event wasn't so cut and dry, but the school never bothered to tell him anything about the relationship between the Jews and Rome at the time, so he could not understand what I was saying. They gave him the date, and they gave him the simple fact that Pilot passed sentence. The rest, as we say fecitiously, is history.

Rhoda Fri Jan 22 13:25:05 PST 1999


"He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm." Proverbs 13:20

I understand how you feel, but be happy that you know this man. In fact, I would get to know him better if I were you. Maybe some of his success will rub off on you. Just remember that your time will come, maybe sooner than you think. The next time you have to attend someone else's book signing figure out ways that you could do a better job when you are giving the signing.

When I was in Farmington I went to all the book signings I could because I wished to support the writers. Seeing these writers sign their books motivated me to work on mine. When you hear their stories, you are reminded that they too were once unpublished and frustrated before they made their breaks. One of my Farmington friends has published six books. I loved spending time with her because I learned from her. I would encourage everyone here to find some published author friends. They are an invaluable resource of help and inspiration.

Judging by the success of some on this Notebook, I don't think we have very far to look.

Happy writing!


S.K.S. Perry Fri Jan 22 13:09:49 PST 1999

Hey all,

Ok, to make matters worse (or better, depending on how you look at it) apparently this author is one of Canada's retired rich generals, who decided on a whim to create his own company and write, publish and distribute his own book. Must be nice! I hope he at least wrote himself a couple of nasty rejection letters before finally accepting his work.

As for typewriters, I know in the old days people used to hammer out stories and books on them, but then again, people used to think taking a bath more than once a year was bad for you! When I was a kid and first started writing, I started on a typewriter. What a pain. I mean, if you decide that this paragraph might work better over here, you had to retype the entire page--sometimes several! And once you finished, if you decided to change something at the begining of the story--like say the main character's name or something--forget about it!

Sorry, but I'll stick to good old MS Word any day (and shower at least once a day to boot.) My writing is vastly improved and I stink pretty too!

Be Well, Live Well.

Avatar Fri Jan 22 12:47:02 PST 1999

Can anyone give me the names and professions of all the Muses? (you know name, muse of what....)

I was helping out a friend who needed to write a sonnet for her english class and stumbled upon this particular poem in my brain (cluttered as it is I can never find anything I want)
Anyway, the theme (I think) is something to do with the forest, or what's left of it. I put it in the workbook so if anyone wants to see it so'kay with me.

I have a Sharp PA-3000 typewriter, newer than most, I suppose, but it has an xx'ing out command that takes out mistakes, but still leaves those little outlines
I think anyone's best bet with those is some white-out or something.

Later all

Fri Jan 22 11:38:33 PST 1999

Allein - Unfortunately it's not the season for garage sales. Baby clothes are outrageous, and they grow out of them really fast. If you opt for clothes go for 6 month or older sizes. I used to work at an educational toy store and we had some great gifts for infants. Contrast is good (the black and white or black, white and red toys) because it helps develop vision. My favorite toy was the Squwish or Quixel, depending on the brand. And it could be purchased in black and white or primary colors. It ran $9-12 and is good from 0 months - 2 yrs. Another good one was the Wiggle Worm, which I think you can get at Target (if you have such things in your neck of the woods).

Lena - Aaah yes. First generation home computers. I remember them well. I played a lot of Zork in those days. The Commodore 64 version recognized swear words, but the Mac version didn't. Odd, that.

SKS - As I've been told, perhaps too often, Buck up young camper! Yah, it sucks. And no it doesn't make you feel very good about yourself or the event you must attend. But if keep at it and really want it, you'll get there. Or you'll revise your goals somewhat.

We servants of the muse must stick together.

Jai Fri Jan 22 11:04:19 PST 1999

An early morning greetings,

5:37am - I'm going away for the weekend but figured I could fit in one last post before I leave.

To all you who have sent me emails, I haven't been able to send any replies and I won't be able to until I get back. Please be patient.

S.K.S. Perry - Yes thankyou. At least you get the chance to go to a book launch, I've still never been to one. Don't worry your day will come.

Thomas ( and others ): My question was not about a specific story but it was more of a general question. I supose a letter of enquiry would probably be the safest course "Dear editor, I submitted a story to you sometime ago and since then it has undergone major changes. Is it your policy to regect resubmissions or would you be happy to look at a peice if it is vastly different from the previously submitted version?"

I think that would be how I would handle such a situation.

OK the full story about Jai and the Typewriter - My mother was a proffesional secretary so she did have a Typewriter. I did mess around with it up until around the age of 8 ( though I can't remember actually typing anything ). At 8 I moved in with my father who did not have a typewriter or a computer. At 15 I got a computer and have never used a typewriter since. Though I do know of their existence and even have a little knowladge of how anoying they can be, I've never seriously used one to write anything. Infact I havn't used one since I was 8.

Anyway I'm sure there was something else I was going to write but I'm running out of time to pack, so I'll see you all on monday. Have a great weekend and do some writing for me :)


S.K.S. Perry Fri Jan 22 10:17:46 PST 1999


Did you get the line edit I sent you on your story? If so, please let me know.

Be Well, Live Well

Lena Fri Jan 22 10:11:26 PST 1999


Thomas - I agree, schools can somehow take the most exciting and interesting events in history and turn them into dates, strategy, numbers, and one-dimensional people. I love history, and yet my history class this year is BORING. We just spent a month on the mass-market revolution. Yipee.

SKS - My sympathies. Just console yourself in the fact that you (probably) have a really neat accent!

Typewriters - I never had the dubious pleasure of owning a typewriter. I don't like typing on typewriters, because I am constantly hitting the back space button when I type and a typewriter doesn't work that well if you plan to mess up every other word. I can type fast, just not accurately. My first computer, however, was one of the clunkers where the pixels are an inch wide and pac-man was a cutting edge game. Ah, my Tandy computer. 'Twas fun.

To all those who are being published - I have a favor to ask. When you tell us the good news, perhaps you could also tell us what magazine (or whatever) you are being published in, and perhaps where we could find a copy. I would love to read some of your stuff, but I have no clue where to find it! Be your own promoter and share the knowledge. :-)


S.K.S. Perry Fri Jan 22 06:28:04 PST 1999

Hey all,

Ever been jealous. It's really not a pleasant feeling. My boss just came into my office this morning and told us that we're expected to be in the Squadron Theatre by 09:30 for a book signing. Apparently one of the retired members of our Squadron has written a book detailing the history of 426 Thunderbird Squadron (that's where I work) and we're holding a book signing here complete with press coverage.
Don't get me wrong; I'm thrilled for the guy. It's just that it's so frustrated being ordered to go to someone else's book signing when I haven't even been able to get anyone to read my book. It's not like I can use the event to make contacts or anything either. We're expected to stand in the back and appluade and keep our mouths shut.

I get the same feeling when when I go to nightclubs where there's a live band playing. I love live music, but I'm a proffessional quality musician, and I'd much rather be up there playing than down here watching.

Oh well, I guess we all have to live with our little know, suffer the slings and arrows. I just wish those darn arrows didn't sting so much!

Be Well, Live Well.

Thomas Fri Jan 22 06:21:13 PST 1999


I was not truly being helpful, just cute. Yet, it really does seem to me that feminism, socialism and especially nationalism aren't much changed since the 19th century. Perhaps feminism is a lot more successful, but the remaining two seem to be in the same wretched place.

Anyway, good luck on your exam. Schools have a great talent for making history boring and difficult to want to study. Rhoda, do you concur?


Did the editor give you any indication of what he/she would like to see, or were you asked to re-submit?

I am sitting on something that was rejected with a note pointing out the areas. I fixed them, sent it back and was told it looks good and that I should re-submit it in Febryuary -- that's next month!

I likely would not have re-submitted to that market without the editor's invitation.

Later everyone, I actually have a paying assignment and must spend the rest of the day interviewing.

Michele Fri Jan 22 00:26:04 PST 1999

Thomas *THAT* does *NOT* help when I have to answer either a question on feminism, socialism or nationalism . . . it's more specific than that !

Typewriter ? What's a typewriter ? (No I kid you - I *AM* as old as that ! I used to have one of those things but I never did any serious writing on it - but then I write everything long-hand anyway !! And the other students on my course think I am MAD . . . but I *AM* !!)

Got to go revise feminism, socialism and nationalism in 19th century Europe . . . talk to you all again . . .


toby b Thu Jan 21 23:07:32 PST 1999

S.N. Arly:

here is the link to it:
copy that and go there. It is the ALPS Split Ergo keyboard. For me splitting the board changes the angles my hands sit at to something more natural and easy on my hands. I really like it, and the price was right for me. I'm very happy with it, and it runs on serial ports, so I was able to use it to plug into the back of my laptop to sort of turn into a desktop.

Allein Thu Jan 21 21:58:06 PST 1999

Lena - got your e-mail and wrote back.

Hey all. I was just informed that my friend is having a baby next month and so now I'm invited to a baby shower, but money is tight. Does anyone have any idas what I can get as an inexpensive but nice gift for a baby boy? I can't think of much because everything is so expensive.

I'll be sure to tell you all when the little guy is born and everything.

Bye bye all,

S.N.Arly Thu Jan 21 19:20:24 PST 1999

Toby - The one I'm talking about is actually two separate pieces that mount on your armrests (which I don't have becasue until I get such a thing, the keyboard lives in my lap). I have an ergo KB and it's great when I can use both hands. I swap obver to my gopod old anykey when I'm limited to one.

What's this one like that you got from egghead (I just upgraded my modem and got WP 8 from them!)?

SKS -You make me laugh. It's great. Because I've got the limitations, and I'm the one who really needs the computer to live.... in a very round about sort of way, I always win. And my KB follows me with the laptop. While the laptop has a very nice KB and I love the touchpad, it's not great for me to do long stints with it. I use 4 different KB all in all. Good thing I'm adaptable, because theirs no help for it.

So, since you don't follow directions, does that mean you come up with some spectacular new creations?

Avatar - I recently sold my old electric but I still have my original manual. My first typewriter. I don't use it much anymore, because I can't. It's too hard on my hands. And I love my editing options on a word processor.

Jai - how could you be too young? Typewriters weren't really shelved until recently. Perhaps you were overprivelaged or deprived?

How long ago did you send it to the editor? How drasticv are the changes? What do the guidelines say? Some eds will not look at a story twice, and yes they know. There are a couple of eidetics out there. If they have no such restrictions and it's been a while, you may want to try again.

I also just got my e-mail functional again. Can relate entirely!


Jai Thu Jan 21 16:03:59 PST 1999

Just thought I should let you all know my email is back up and I'm happy again ( we are such fickle creatures )


Jai Thu Jan 21 14:51:03 PST 1999

Sorrowful Greetings all,

Woo is me :(.... How can I start work without my email ( it's down at the moment ). I think I need my email fix as much as most of my co-workers need their coffee. Ahh well... maybe I'll get over it.

Avatar - Type what, what is that? I'm a bit to young for typewriters, ever since I've been into writing I've had a computer. Though I used to do a fair amount by hand.

Jerry Ericsson - Hey ya ( used to know someone named Haya ). Nice to meet you and welcome.

Question - Is it ever OK to resubmit a piece of writing to an editor after a rejection? What if you have basically replaced every line and given the story a whole new direction? In other words when does one story change so much as to no longer be the same story?

Jai Shaw

Thomas Thu Jan 21 14:33:48 PST 1999

Hey all,

Many years ago my wife -- who was there when word processing took off -- worked with the Dvorak keyboard. The keyboard was completely different in design than the one we use today. Our keyboard actually was designed to slow typists down because the old hammer system could not go as fast as the typist on the keys. Mr. Dvorak -- an inventor -- developed a redesigned board but the small company my wife worked for, a division of Exxon (ESSO in Europe), could not get industry interested. My wife loved the thing. I do not think it would ahve helped me and my four typing fingers.

One of the problems I have with recipes is that I do not write my concoctions down, so every time I prepare a dish it is slightly different. Forget measurements -- I do that by feel. This bad habit really messed me up with my book, so I had to force myself to write out recipes. Now, I go back to the book to change the recipe each time I change it in the kitchen. If I do not sell the book soon I am going to be recipe insane!


I just got rid of my IBM Selectric because it no longer worked and was not worth fixing. My father-in-law uses a manual typewriter. He's an old acqaintance of Andy Rooney, of 60 Minutes, who also uses a manual typewriter.


Thanks. I am having a tough time of it finding the time to do all the research I need to do. You have been my shortcut.




19th century European history is easy; it's the same as today, except for the Euro.

Welcome Jerry

Avatar Thu Jan 21 13:02:48 PST 1999

You guys are makin' me hungry. An' I just had lunch!

Am I the only one who doesn't?

Back to the writing........

......I hope......8-() AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Barb G. Thu Jan 21 12:00:10 PST 1999

Hi Y'all,

Dudes and Dudettes -- how is everyone? I've missed you. Where have you been?

SKS and Howard have asked why I haven't been around lately, so I thought I'd drop in for a tiny moment (since the story I'm working on is at an impasse (sp?) and I'm vamping until ready... And No, SKS, not the Music one. Another one altogether different.

Jack: the place looks great! Wonderful work here! (applause, applause) No, honestly it does look great!

I've been so busy I'm kind of riding the whirlwind and seldom setting down lately. My personal work had slowed to my sorrow, but the new year brought new rules -- like "my work" comes first (but it's so hard to keep to that when you love editing like I do!)

I truly hope all your holidays were all you hoped they would be and that everyone is well and fit.

I haven't looked at the workbook since last year. But, I will make a point of it when some spare time comes my way.

This type of posting is so much nicer than on the other sites I've been lately. Their system is so agonizingly slow! Don't you agree, Snarly? I love this.

Well guys, Havahappi

Eddie French Thu Jan 21 11:09:13 PST 1999

Sorry that it seems to be taking so long to get the ICQ chat up and running. One of the main reasons is that I am reluctant to clog up these pages with posts about configuration details and computer stuff etc. (The www has often been acused of being totaly self serving)You know.....using the internet soley to make the internet better.
But.....since you asked. Yes...if you see the NoteBook chat in the online section and it has a smiley face alongside then feel free to request chat. This is probably the best way to test it.

Good news! I have just had a story accepted for publication by an online mag. (After a tiny bit of editing).
I think one or two others on the notebook have had something published there.
I know all about the copyright problems and the first publication rights but hey, It has given me a whole lot of self confidence and inspired me to write some more. (After all, what's one short when 'I got a million of 'em'

Later, be good.

Rhoda Thu Jan 21 11:05:20 PST 1999


I have a great site for you. It is ANTIQUE ROMAM DISHES--COLLECTION and can be found at: I found this link on Jack's other site, ForWriters at So take a look there and you might find more such sites.

I got my last manuscript back the day before yesterday. I sent out 19 contacts, and they have all been dead-ends. That is OK, though, because looking through the manuscript, there are many rough edges I didn't see before and perhaps it deserved to get rejected. It is nice not feeling the need to rush to the mailbox every day or checking the phone for messages. I have been given the wonderful opportunity of making my manuscript even better than before. When that is done, I will try again with 20 more agents. What is really wonderful is that I have now found motivation to write again and have been more productive these past couple of days.

Well, I must go.

Happy writing and happy cooking!


S.K.S. Perry Thu Jan 21 11:04:01 PST 1999

Dang, (I just stole that from S.N. Arly)

Everyone's here is always looking for resources and information, yet we often forget the excellent links Jack has provided for us at Sometimes the answers are right there in your own back yard. Thanks for pointing that out S.N.


I once dated a woman from New Jersy who thought my Canadian accent was a hoot. Needless to say, I was pretty impressed with hers also. Remember, accents depend on your point of reference also.

I have a split keyboard at home, which I love. Problem is, it's on my desktop computer and my wife's a real internet hog, so I end up doing most of my writing on a laptop that I've signed out from work. My computer at work has a regular keyboard, and sometimes it can get frustrating changing back and forth from the three different formats. None of the keys are ever where you remember them!

Oh yeah, Welcome Jerry. I can always use a another brain to mess with...I mean pick.

Jai, you've passed the english exam so far (we won't hold what we post to the Notebook against each other.)Unfortunately with English, there's never a final exam. They just keep on coming.

Recipe? What's a recipe? That's kinda like instructions, ain't it? And we all know real men never read instructions, or ask for directions, which is probably why so many guys go missing while looking for a Burger King, or MacDonalds.

Be Well, Live Well.

Michele Thu Jan 21 11:01:38 PST 1999

Well I got through the English exam - it just so happened that the compulsory poetry question was on a Wordsworth poem I'd tried analysing over the weekend (!) and there was another question on poetry (in section 2 we had to pick one from a choice of six) that I was able to answer using material from a Frost and Wordsworth poem I'd also analysed over the weekend - how's that for an example of the "uncanny" ??

Just late-19th century European history to go now . . . heeeeellllllllllpppppppppp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


toby b Thu Jan 21 10:53:13 PST 1999

S.N. Arly, dude:

I have a good ergonomic split keyboard, and it does wonders for my carpel...I just recently bought it for $35 dollars from I'm not sure about $800, but if you have 35 bucks to spare, I can't think of a better buy.


S.N.Arly Thu Jan 21 10:43:02 PST 1999

Dang. I created such a lovely post yesterday and couldn't post it. No DNS and all that. And now I've gone and left it at home.

Welcome Jerry. I like the concept of brain browsing.

Lena - Unlike many of the things in our great nation, there's no age restriction on publishing. I was first published at 15. I know there are those who've done it younger. There's even a magazine published out of Duluth, I believe, entirely designed and written by junior high girls.

On split keyboards - I got to use a nice one in physical therapy last time I was in. Too bad I don't have $800 to blow on it. It was a completely split model and it was wonderful. Would have taken some getting used to, but soooo nice.

On recipes: I really enjoy cooking, but can't do it as much as I want. As a vegetarian I have to get creative. Good thing I already was. My greatest success has been spagetti sauce. It's not tomato based. It's garlic based.

We're discussing market research in my online SF group. SKS has some good points, although I usually eschew the book method for other options. On the main page of is a button for markets. Jack's done a great job on this. Just follow the links around from place to place. It's fabulous! I also use Speculations an online market report, and locus online. It's always a good idea to get a sample of the mag so you know what you're sening is appropriate and not a waste of the ed's time.


Lena Thu Jan 21 08:51:18 PST 1999


Jerry - Welcome, hope you continue to visit us!

SKS - Thanks for the list and ideas. As I said before, I have never submitted anything, but I have plenty of time to get rejected in later life. Do you have to be 18 or older in order to be published?

On accents - While I was on a trip to Texas (about a month ago) I met this guy who had the most wonderful accent. He was Canadian, with an absolutely beautiful way of speaking. He had a smooth voice, very melodious, that went up and down in pitch as Canadians voices tend to, so that his speech was musical. His voice was rounded and warm, and he smiled a lot. I would just stand there and listen to the man talk, though I didn't always hear what he was saying... actually, come to think of it, he reminded me of you, Goodweed. Don't ask me why, he just did.

Well, next week is exams. I happen to be one of the strange people who does not stress out about tests. In fact, the bigger the test, the calmer I get, which makes me feel as if the rest of the world goes insane during exams. It's no big deal, no reason to stress. If you fail, you fail, if you pass, you pass. What is worrying going to accomplish?

One of my favorite lines from a song: "If I could tell the world just one thing, it would be that we're all okay / And not to worry because worry is wasteful and useless in times like these..." That's Jewel, don't know the name of the song. I hope nobody sues me for copyright infringement or anything.

Smile, they'll wonder what you've been up to,

Jerry Ericsson Thu Jan 21 08:37:45 PST 1999

Hi, got into writting in College and am doing it as a hobby for now - not submitting yet still working on it. I do have a lot to offer if you are looking for a source -
Viet Nam Vet - 17 years on the job in small town policing - paralegal - computer nerd (hardware and software)
drop me a line if you need to browse my brain

Thomas Thu Jan 21 07:17:00 PST 1999

Almost forgot. Re: My external hard drive problem. If any of you have bought from Digital Grafix you should know that when it comes time for needing their technical support, they are rude and unhelpful. In fact, I am writing a letter to their CEO and copying Apple and the California BBB.

I am also going to start a new business of writing letters for people who need help getting the service and products that the supplier promises but fails to deliver.

Most people do not know the power of a complaint letter, nor do they know the best way to write it. I have been getting results from letters since I created a congressional investigation with a letter when I was in the Air Force. I also got a New York City Mayor once to respond to a problem I had with a city run hospital -- that was a most wonderful achievement.

Anyway, Digital Grafix deserves a complaint letter.

Thomas Thu Jan 21 07:08:49 PST 1999


Thanks for the archiving, only now I haven't the time to make that cup of cappuccino while waiting for the notebook to finish loading. Are you going to use any ideas from this notebook for the conference you are attending?



To all,

On the subject of recipes: Having been on my own since age 19 - believe me, it was long ago - I developed the habit of creating my own recipes. Sometimes I try a new recipe, modifying it to meet my tastes or to augment what I think is its weakness. Mostly, I try different (to me) foods and recipes at restaurants and then I go home and use my powers of deduction to figure out what was in the recipe and to duplicate or make it better. And I always share recipes with friends, family and now, some of us online. I have the added benefit of residing 1/4 mile from a once cookbook writer. I have learned many "tricks" from her and she being primarily an "old school" cook, has accepted many new-age ideas from me. It is a fine friendship.

There is only one subject that excites me more than food and wine -- well, maybe two subjects; the first one is a given.

Does anyone here know of a book that includes ancient recipes? I know about Ann Willan's book of old recipes, but I am seeking recipes from Classical Greece and Rome, or before if available. I need this for research to spike my book about garlic, wine and olive oil.

Got to go now to try and figure out why my Mac suddenly decided not to recognize the Zip and 1 Gig external drives I have been using for nearly a year.

Jack Beslanwitch Wed Jan 20 22:50:20 PST 1999

Jai: I think the way this would work best is if we select a specific time per week or more often to have an online chat. Else, perhaps set up a series of possible times and post them on the ICQ page. As it stands right now I am basically waiting until Ed gives me the high sign that it is ready for business. Another possibility, ableit a bit more buggy, is the Excite set up for creating online private communities that include an online JAVA chat. Attempts to use this on another community have proved adequate, albeit a bit buggy since there were frequent knock offs that entailed a bit of time consumption to get relogged back on. If anyone has a desire to create such a community, the URL is I know, a bit of a mouth full metaphorically speaking in terms of a URL, but it does have possibilities. However, I would prefer to continue trying the ICQ for the near term and see if that services better. Well, this weekend I am off for Potlatch, a writers convention with a science fiction leaning taking place in Eugene, Oregon. Proceeds from it go to help Clarion West, which is an awesome boot camp for science fiction writers. It also has weekly readings from the authors that act as teachers for each week. In pass go arounds this has included such authors as Octavia Butler, Orson Scott Card and many many more. Take care everyone.

Jai Wed Jan 20 22:13:13 PST 1999

Back to my old habit of adding a second post -

About the ICQ room, when I see it's online is it cool to hop in or are you still just "testing" it.


Jai Wed Jan 20 22:04:43 PST 1999

Greetings -

Just like to say a big good luck with all the exams that everyone else seems to be doing :-).. I'd help if I could, honest...

Actually maybe I am doing an exam. S.K.S. Perry, have I passed my grammar exam yet? Seriously you've been a big help and a public thanks cannot go awray ( I hope ).

Cooking - I had a spate of love for this hobby, unfortunatly most of the stuff I cooked was from someone elses recipies. I do have some loose "guidlines" for a few basic meals, stews and curries and some favorite ingredients but I must admit I use Lena's method most often unless I want to try somthing new... then I search around for a recipy that sounds nice. Actually I made some wicked spinish and fetta puff pasties the other day :) Don't know if I can remember the exact recipie though

Lena - Actually I wouldn't consider my acent strong, my mother was english ( as are alot of Australian's mothers ) thus I would say I have a blunted english acent, well that's what I like to think anyway. Bewty acent I got mate.

Thomas - Actually I am a winter person so I am also unhappy at the moment. Especially since their is hardly any water worthy of swimming in where I live. Maybe we can swap houses every six months, then I could live in eternal winter... no that would get a bit boring... though some snow with the biting cold may be a refreashing change.

Goodweed of the North - That wasn't me spouting all that hardware stuff :). Not to worry, your right though, you should be able to get a 540 meg HD pretty cheep, if you wanted to settle for an 80 meg you could probably get it free. Your mother board can probably deal with a 1 gig ( just a guess ). Even if it cannot their are nasty boot sector programs around that trick your computer into thinking the disk is really smaller than it is exept when you want to use it :).. I'm thinking of getting one of those external zip drives, with 10mb disks, but I'm not thinking very hard.

Well another day of writing, good writing all

Jai Shaw - The English/Australian, progamming fantasy/sci-fi author with bells.

Jack Beslanwitch Wed Jan 20 19:50:12 PST 1999

I finally took a moment and archived up to the last day. Given that we had reached 128 k it was time for a mostly tabula rasa. As for recipe sites, do not skip out on the epicurious site located at Among other things this has a database for all the recipes found in the covers of Bon Appetit. I found it especially useful last Thanksgiving when I was able to just print out the recipe for the Ultimate Pumpkin Pie (which, as it happens, it is with the apricot preserve topping which does wonders) and a yummy (that is a technical term :-) recipe for a glazed turkey that applied to a 22 pound acme tom. Take care everyone and while we are talking about recipes a little bit let me point you at my own recipe for Kitchen Sink Pilaff

Bon Appetit

Allein Wed Jan 20 19:48:13 PST 1999

SKS - I got your e-mail and I replied.

Lena - Hope to get your e-mail soon. :-)

Bye bye,

howard Wed Jan 20 19:29:16 PST 1999

Goodweed, et al, for a very nice recipe daily, accompanied by some Excellent Writing -- along with pointers to lots of interesting sites, check the recipedujour website listed above. Subscription is free, and it is a most useful thing! I've done several of his recipes, and they're very good. And as I said, there's that added bonus of good writing. I'll send you my own recipe for Angel hair pasta with white clam sauce if anyone wants it, or the one for chicken breasts with roasted garlic/onions/mushrooms/celery, accompanied by linguine with a mild garlic-cheese sauce. -------- Re: reject letters -- I've had several -- for short stories and for poetry -- but the main thing is to keep trying! It only takes one acceptance to cancel out a whole pile of rejects! howard

Avatar Wed Jan 20 12:51:38 PST 1999

Lena- truly are we kindred spirits you and I

Howard- Congrats, my man! It's good to see someone get along in the world once in a while.

On the subject of recipies, i have nothing to say. I don't have enough experience in the kitchen as of yet to experiment without blowing up the oven. [sigh]

Thomas- I'm working, I'm working!

Later all

Michele Wed Jan 20 12:43:15 PST 1999

Lena - if you want my accent . . . ! I'll swap it for someone to come and do my English exam for me tomorrow - get on a plane someone !!!!!

No takers ? No I thought not !!!

Guess I'll have to go then . . .

Talk to you folks sometime soon (if you hear someone with an English accent screaming - that'll be me !!)


eiddE hcnerF Wed Jan 20 10:31:32 PST 1999

I t'nod evah taht melborp htiw enim


Thomas Wed Jan 20 08:25:19 PST 1999

That's weird. I knew that. It's those four fingers typing in reverse.

Thomas Wed Jan 20 08:22:57 PST 1999

Hello everyone,

I confess. I am the one who shares recipes with Goodweed. Nice past time, sharing recipes and eating, that is.


Follow SKS's advice on markets -- can't expand on it. I maintain, though, that you must send something in at some point. All writers need that first step, for the experience of it, and perhaps, for the publication of it. If you think what you write is not worthy, and no one else sees it, how will you ever really know if you are correct?


My wife bought one of those (what I call wierd) keyboards. Now the four fingers I use for typing are further apart on the keyboard, and when I use the left hand to cross over into the domain of the right, it has a longer distance to travel.

And as for long time getting on the notebook, I modem at 56K and it still takes a while.


To those seeking females -- programmers or not -- last night Bill Clinton referred to a furture president as he or she. Is that progress? And enough with the hot weather and sunshine down under. I will remember those digs when it is August here and you know what there.

S.K.S. Perry Wed Jan 20 06:59:35 PST 1999

Hey all,

Lena, On finding places to submit your stories to. Doing market research as to what magazine or publisher takes what kind of story might be even more important than writing the story itself. Probably the best way is to actually buy some of these magazines and see what kind of stories they print. I write SF and Fantasy mostly, so I pick up copies of Asimov's, Analog, Fantasy and Science Fiction, MZB's Fantasy, ect. Most of these magazines have websites where you can find their submission guidelines that will tell you pretty much anything you want to know about what kind of story they're looking for and how they want it submitted.

You can also check out Writer's Digest, both on-line and the Magazine itself. They have a pretty good list of publishers and their requirements. Or try The Market List at

And of course, there's always the Writer's Market or Writer's Guide to Book Editors, Publisers and Literary Agents. Most bookstores will have copies of these, as well as any good library. Make sure you get the most recent one though as they're updated every year.

This should get you started. I hope it was of some help.

Be Well, Live Well.

Lena Wed Jan 20 06:25:05 PST 1999

Hullo all!

I'm with Avatar - another of those never-been-rejected-cause-I've-never-submitted types. I will submit, as soon as I write something I feel is good enough. A lot of the stuff I write now are experiments... for example, can I write a story in second person? (no, it's really strange) Can I do a story that is only dialogue? (yeah, but its strange too) I am also trying to make my description better (description is my worst part of writing, I don't have a mind for metaphors) and make my dialogue more realistic, two of my weaknesses.

On that subject, how do you find places to submit your writing to?

Jai - I must admit, there do seem to be a lack of females interested in computers. I go to a math, science, and technology academy for half of the day, and, hmm, let me see, there are seven girls in our class of thirty. Works fine for me, though... <> However, I don't believe your 'myth of the female programmer,' just listen to Howard and Michelle (and myself). And hey, if you lack female programmers down under, maybe I could go work in Australia, as long as I don't pick up that strange accent of you Aussies! :-) I happen to like my strange little American accent... although I wouldn't mind an English one. As I once told a friend of mine from England, I would move to her country just so I could pick up an English accent. So, if anyone on the Notebook is from England, just know I am in constant awe of the way you talk!

SN Arly - Thanks.

Goodweed - I would send you recipes, but I do not cook by recipes. I am not familiar with all the spices, herbs, etc so I season by smell. I kid you not - if it smells like it should go in spaghetti, it goes in the spaghetti. I end up with some strange contraptions, but no one has complained yet, so...

Bon appetite (or something like that),

S.K.S. Perry Wed Jan 20 05:15:18 PST 1999

Hey All,

Allein, I tried sending the critique to your hotmail address. If you don't get it this time, I guess I'll have to post it to the critique section of the Workbook. And don't worry about whether it's a good critique. Remember, the idea behind a critique is to point out ways to do things better, unless of course the story's perfect, and I don't know about you but at least I've never written one of those! That said, for my view on critiques read my earlier posting on this page of the Notebook--maybe you'll see them in a different light.

Be Well, Live Well.

Goodweed of the North Tue Jan 19 21:32:40 PST 1999

Toby; Way down in this very full notebook, you ask if I am still enjoying winter. To that question, I have to answer yes. I still enjoy looking at the perfection of seamless snow on an empty field. I still love to watch ice-crystals dance like diamonds as they fall to the ground. I still love the refreshing smell of brisk air.

I don't like getting stuck in my own driveway and being late for work. I don't like freezing during the walk from our parking area in the back forty to the office. I don't like having nearly bald tires, hoping that I don't get a flat.

I have survived the bitter cold of January's first two weeks, shoveling my own roof as well as my mothers and sisters. I had charlie-horses during that exercise. I even survived our brief January thaw, which softened the hard-packed snow into 15" of dirty slush (made my tires spin on the slightest grades).

"And that, my fine featherd freind, ith the latht I'm going to thay about winter." to paraphrase the ever popular Sylvester the cat.

Jai; The reason I'm looking for another 540meg is that it should be very cheap. There aren't many people looking for anything that small. I have a first generation Pentium 60mhz with 20 meg of ram (no math glitch thank you). It's a good reliable machine. I don't know what the max storage capacity really is. Also, I just don't have $130 to plunk down. My wife's meds, and kids (three teenageer and a 20 year old who just started college) needs, not to mention bills, must come first.

So much for sour grapes. On the plus side, I now have a freind on the notebook who can challenge me in the kitchen. I'm looking forward to sharing recipes with a pro. Anyone else who would like to share their favorite recipes (these must be basically from scratch recipes, though I don't expect you to grind your own wheat) e-mail me. I'll send you some of my best in exchange. Is that a kind of publishing?

"Darned old puttey tat. He got paw prints all over my manuscript."

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North

Jai Tue Jan 19 20:23:54 PST 1999

Howard - The dark side indead, Australia must not have caught on to this trend as yet or maybe all the female programmers are smart enough to realise the Aussie dollar is worthless and have moved elsewhere. Much to my displeasure. Though I imagine it is much brighter here than over there at this time of year. So here I am stuck on the light side, my life devoid of female influence ( at least at work ). Woo is me :-)

Getting hot again too. I better go turn the aircon on.


Eddie French Tue Jan 19 20:20:36 PST 1999

Sorry about the many typos in my last. A combination of tiredness and the new keyboard.

Eddie French Tue Jan 19 20:17:17 PST 1999

Insomnia strikes again.
It's 03:30 here and I actually went to bed at 22:30. I woke up and stared at the ceiling for a while then came down for a coffee (don't say it).
I was going to carry out some much needed editing on my novel but could't get my head around it so you guys get ramblings instead.
I've just re-connected my ergonomic keyboard so once again I am trying the split hands typing method. (I can see these things getting further and further apart so that we eventually have half a keypad on each arm of our chairs)

Welcome to the Notebook Aaron (Better late than never), Sonja and Luna.
Don't forget to get your ICQ numbers.

I can't see why you would plug for a 540 drive when 2.1 drives are only a bit more expensive (unless you have an old machine) My machine has about 900 meg of 'essential' applications on it before any data are stored. That's Microsoft 'Bloatware' for you!
You could try using your 'Find files' feature and requesting [ *.tmp ] then delete the lot. This may free up some space. A friend of mine had 150 meg of them on his machine once.

If you find it difficult to get onto the notebook once in a while try checking the speed that your modem has connected up at. (If you are using a 3360 modem there is no guarentee that you will connect at that speed every time. In windows 95/98 hold you mouse arrow over the little box with flashing lights/flashing screens in the system tray bottom right of your screen and you should get a yellow 'Bubble help' caption appear. Check the kps speed and if it is below your maximum connect capability then disconnect from your server and dial up again.

[Remember, there is an equivalent power structure that controls every facet of information dissemination--whether print, radio, Television or Movies.] Quote

I've always known this. Tv gameshows.....a sinister plot to turn us all into mindless consumer junkies.

Amazing how we both opened that last reply to Steve with the the exact same phrase. (About the pedantic immediate superior) Meybe that's why mine seem to have been lost in the melee :)

Please breathe 'it's not good for to 'Wait with baited breath' It's just the time zone difference which is making it a bit difficult to organise things. As soon as I get a definate schedule sorted out for a test then I can set the whole chat thing up. After that it will be up to the members when they feel like chatting.
Another option is to set brain never stops with these ideas, I should be a millionaire. what went wrong?.

Enough already!

Howard Tue Jan 19 18:33:12 PST 1999

Jai! The "myth" of the female programmer? On what planet were you assembled!!??? :-) I've worked in data processing (IBM and elsewhere) for over 30 years, and I've worked with *many* programmers, and a large percentage of the good ones were on the distaff side. In fact, many of the very best ones were on the "mommy track" and raised families along with writing code. Some of them made dang good managers too!
howard :-)

kayla yost write a story and print Tue Jan 19 17:32:46 PST 1999

write a story below:

Allein Tue Jan 19 15:10:57 PST 1999

Sorry all. The "raichu34" was me. It's my password for my hotmail address - well, now that I've told you, it's not anymore. For some reason unknown to me, I thought I was checking my hotmail.

SKS - I didn't get the second e-mail. But I'll wait. If it doesn't come to my AOL mail, send it to my hotmail address - listed above. If it doesn't come to there, then you can post it on the notebook - I just hope this is a good critique, but a little critisism never hurt and it can help.

Bye bye all.

raichu34 Tue Jan 19 15:06:34 PST 1999

Jai Tue Jan 19 14:46:23 PST 1999


Michele - This myth of the female programer is always going to remain such to me, until the day I meet one in the flesh.

Finally posted a short up on the book. So you can all at last see what I do. Does this make me an offical notebook member? *Grin*...

Jai Shaw

Thomas Tue Jan 19 14:27:38 PST 1999


Funny you are in need of a hard drive. I bought a Quantum 2.1 gig. external to use to store those old files that take up space, and I religiously backed up on it too, in case the internal drive says goodbye.

Nine months later Mr. Quantum says goodbye and takes my files with him. The toolkit I got with the drive won't let me fix it either. So much for extending memory or storage.


The thing about college is that, later on when you are out in the real world, you discover how little college teaches.


What are you waiting for? Take the notebook comments you have about your work, revise the piece and send it out. You can't have the experience until you have it, and you really must receive your first rejection to understand if and why you want to continue to write.

I will also say that you have to believe in your work, so work on that aspect too.


Thanks for the comments on Keep Walking, and our continuing city rambles. Incidentally, if you want to chat with any of us on ICQ you have to register (accept) us so that we can access you.

Goodweed of the North Tue Jan 19 14:13:30 PST 1999

P.S. Does anyone know of a place on the web where I can purchase a 540 meg. IDE hard-drive, cheap ($30.00 or less)? I've about filled up the drive that came with my machine, (Windows 98 is and absolute hard-drive memory pig). Thanks.

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North

Goodweed of the North Tue Jan 19 14:07:59 PST 1999

Howard; I too must say congrats. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

I have only about a half hours worth of editing before my latest (and hopefully last) revision of "Power of the Talismans" is complete. I'm still waiting for the local bookstore to get the agent book I ordered. I hope it arrives soon.

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North

Avatar Tue Jan 19 13:03:58 PST 1999

Thanks for the comments on the story, wise writers all.

I really have nothing to say about the idiot editor thing. I have never been rejected (never submitted either) I suppose I prefer to be my poor lonely self, revising and editing and writing things thought to be hideous by my insidiously idiotic mind and working on things I know are absolutely horrendous, but just cannot discontinue. Sigh.

Does anybody have what the preferences are for short stories in Sci-fi fantasy market?


Michele Tue Jan 19 11:49:32 PST 1999


I may be an EX-programmer (mostly EX - I still program for the old web site thingy, if that counts !) but I still enjoy doing it - and I'm a girl (or I was the last time I looked !!)

That's it - I've got an exam to revise for . . .


S.N.Arly Tue Jan 19 11:02:44 PST 1999

Lena - I was also the good child, and my parents didn't want me to go to Madison, but they had no choice but to get used to it. Trust me on this one, you're going to look back on this and say, "I got THAT worked up over this?" Most colleges let you change your major as many times as you want. I was a theatre major for a while before getting into the journalism school. And nothing says you can't take classes after college. Choosing your path now doesn't mean it'll be your path forever and it's more important that you study what you're interested in than what your parents want you to be interested in. You're the one who will have to live with these decisions. But again, let me stress that you really do have time.

Pat L - As Jai mentioned, self addressed stamped envelope. If you want your MS returned the envelope needs to have sufficient postage for that. If you just want a response, you can send a #10 (business size) SASE.. Do watch in publisher's guidelines, however. Sometimes they specify which they want.


Thomas Tue Jan 19 07:10:07 PST 1999

Cheers to Howard from a glass of Finger Lakes, New York wine.

S.K.S. Perry Tue Jan 19 06:19:50 PST 1999

Ok Allein,

I've sent you another E-mail. If this one doesn't arrive, let me know and maybe I'll post the critique on the Workbook.

Be Well, Live Well.

Jack Beslanwitch Tue Jan 19 03:15:27 PST 1999

For those that have been working on Those Bones in the Round Robins, I have just gone in and excised the editorial comments and added the first of several science fiction elements that makes more sense out of what I had in mind in the story. My addition is the second addition down from the first that Goodweed added. As I have time I will edit the rest, but wanted to set a little more of the stage for what I had in mind. Take care all and happy to see all the new participants in the Writers Workbook. Also, even though I have not gotten the changed scripts I want for the Workbook up and running, sometime this week I will be archiving here and changing the login names and passwords for the Workbook.


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