Torhyth@yahoo.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 19:27:12 PST 1999
That should have been, Thomas, I disagree. :)
TB
toby b torhyth@yahoo.com http://members.aol.com/TMSpell/flame. Sun Feb 7 19:26:18 PST 1999
Naming one person as the source of all evil and explotation is too easy. It's
a cop out. If you do your research, you'll find that Colombus was a pretty laid
back chap, most of the horrifying stuff done in his name was done by his brother
and his underlings while he was in Spain and powerless to do anything about it.
If you want a SOB go yell at Cortes :) Also, if Colombus didn't run into
America, someone else would have.
Thomas; r.e L. Ron Hubbard's, I agree.
I've been submitting for seven years now. I've recieved an honarable mention,
and I have never, ever, been exposed to scientology. No literature mailed, or
books offered. In fact, the books offered in the back of the anthology are the
SF books that L. Ron Hubbard wrote, nothing else. I think the people over at
Author Services are very aware of walking on eggshells. To tag the contest
without ever doing your research is dangerous. I'm one of those rare individuals
who believe that everyone else is entitled to their own beliefs without my
constant judgement. I guess I'm like that because I'm a multi-racial, and
multi-cultural. But L. Ron Hubbards, if you look at their honor roll, discovered
a huge chunk of all the SF writers that you are reading today. Without
corrupting their spiritual mores. People like R. Garcia y Robertson (The
Princess of Helium, on the Hugo for short story), and Beverly Suaraz Beard, and
other writers I can't think of but can get back to you with. People like
Mcaffrey, and Brin judge the contest, and Niven, and Pournelle. With the support
and friendleness I have heard about from friends of mine who have won and gone,
I am all for it. Heck, one of our own ranks, T.M Spell, (I miss you dude!) won
an L. Ron Hubbard's piece, second place I believe. You can see what he says on
the subject by clicking on the homepage line above by my email.
Cheers
all. Keep writing.
TB
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen Sun Feb 7 18:56:55 PST 1999
Allein,
I wouldn't believe anything about Christopher Columbus that
is taught in schools. It is so popular to hate and despise the man and judge him
by modern standands. Most people had never been to India, though judging by
Columbus's many explorer friends, he had some idea what he would find there. He
knew that his explorations only entailed a very little land he found. He thought
that if he kept searching and asking the natives he would soon find the great
Kahn. Incidently at that time India was filled with wilderness also and brown
skinned people like the natives in Hispaniola. Why wouldn't he mistaken them for
Indians? No one had any idea at that time there would be a continent between
Europe and the Orient. How would they know unless the Vikings had been able to
keep better records? If the Americas had not existed, then Columbus would have
found the Orient if he had the food and provisions to complete the journey.
Think about it, Allein, most people including Colombus's crew thought
the earth was flat and they would fall off by sailing so far west. They also
thought that monsters and sea serpants inhabited the waters west of Europe.
These men were ready to mutiny because of their fear and discomfort. Columbus
had much faith in his theory. He was the only known man since the Vikings to
sail out west from Europe and just keep sailing and get back to Europe to tell
the tale. I wonder if you or your teachers would have the courage or the ability
to do such a thing if you lived in Colombus's day. I daresay you would not any
more than I would.
As far as Indians, Columbus might have done some mean
things, but most of the cruety was brought about by the people who followed him.
Columbus was merely a man of his times, and they were cruel times where life was
considered cheap. Spain had just fought a bitter battle with the Moors, and they
were still drunk with blood-lust from it. They were horrible not only to
American Indians, but Jews, and later Protestants. Read some 16th century
English history and review the reign of Mary Tudor and her husband Philip when
they brought the Spanish Inquisition to England. Hundreds were burned at the
steak.
Indians noble? I suppose some of them are and were. During my
time in Farmington, NM living beside the Navajo reservation I met many Indians.
They were interesting and sweet people, but they were JUST people. Some were
great human beings, and some were not--just like anybody else. Yes, the Indians
have been grossly exploited, and that began with the coming of Columbus, but if
Columbus had not come, some one else would have and in that day and age would
have exploited the Indians just the same. Would the Chinese, Russian, Japanese,
or any other European power been more merciful? No, not while they outnumbered
and outgunned the natives.
Forgive my many words, but I am frankly tired
of all the Political Correctness crap that has surrounded Columbus. I tire of
all the people that have sullied his name and belittled his accomplishments.
Sure he wasn't a saint, and he might have had his faults, but he did a truly
brave thing. The world has never been the same since.
Happy writing,
Rhoda
Hayden mailto:http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 18:49:07 PST 1999
Boy oh boy what a different world this page is becoming! Fantastic. Keep it
up all of you.
Just read back over the monster m/s I created over
Dec/Jan, and the first 26 pages stunk. Absolute crap. I went into the bathroom
and stood under the shower and stood there looking glum. (I would have been even
more upset if I had turned the shower on because I was still wearing my
clothes.)The shower has a great resonance when you sob...you gotta try it some
time. Let me know when so I can organise a roster.
So, after the glum
groans were out of the way, back to the computer and 26 pages bashed to bits,
then printed off and sent to the publisher to insert. Feel much better, thanks.
Oh, for those of you who want to know how I managed 100,000 words in 2
months (let's not talk about the 26 pages) I have to warn you it wasn't easy.
The first month was filled with xmas things and weddings so I managed to write
only about 40,000 words. Second month was easier cause the structure was in
place and I was able to just write it. A trick I learnt was to allow things to
happen where they wanted to, then adjust the direction in the plot so it still
made sense and all of it came together. Be brave, my son!(...ah...daughter as
appropriate)
Another trick: have someone editing/proofing as you go. Jo, my
wife, was great and the end product was worth the effort.
Cheers
Hayden
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823 Sun Feb 7 18:22:25 PST 1999
Where I got my information - from a teenage guy...I didn't think he was right
on the dot, but maybe close or something. After all, most of the guys I know
(and I'm not talking about anyone here - I mean the teenage guys I know)
consider themselves experts on sex. I also saw a talk show about sexual abuse
and rape and they said it could happen, but I think they were talking about
women, which doesn't really help. But I'll check for rape crisis websites and
such. I also realize that there could be problems with later sexual responses
(which Allein experiences in a later story) but I'm talking about the there and
then, at the time his uncle is doing this to him.
Okay NIE-way, on
Christopher Columbus, his entire story is covered in lies, half truths and
rumors. We don't even really know what he looked like and he WAS a jerk to the
Indians. Plus, if he was so smart, how come he thought he was in India when he
arrived in America. I mean, the two regions are very different. I'll just leave
it there, because I could go on and on about what's wrong with Columbus (we
covered this in history).
Well, bai bai all.
Allein
Jai Jai@towersoft.com.au http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 16:01:37 PST 1999
EEK!
One of my word files became corrupt and when I saved it it
crashed my computer! I hate that I lost a whole 10 minutes work and spent ages
fretting. I have managed to rescue it now though.
Jai
S.N.Arly moobeast@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~moobeast Sun Feb 7 15:25:44 PST 1999
Oooops. That was me.
mailto:http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 15:22:58 PST 1999
Some watery tart distributing weapons is no basis for government...
Allein - Don't know where you got that earlier info, but I have to agree
with Thomas that it's not accurate. If you want to know for sure, you could
check with a rape crisis center. They may be able to tell you that, and if you
say it's reserarch they may give you more info than you think you need.
Toby - I never miss an L.Ron deadline.
W. Olivia - YEA! I can't
stand Barbara Streisand.
Thomas - You fear too much.
Agsousa - I
only recently discovered my Native American connection, although I have often
used themes consistent with it. I'm also of strong Celt/Gael background so I'm
fond of the earth and her many children. That's about as close as I get. I'm
also not a literary writer, so those things just have to show up as they figt in
my fantasy and sci fi.
On strong characters - Strength can be overdone.
A relaistic or believable character needs flaws. Else s/he has nowhere to grow.
S.N.Arly
Welcome to Castle Anthrax...
Thomas booklink@ptd.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 15:00:42 PST 1999
Allein,
I am no doctor (but I play one on t.v. -- joke!) yet it seems
to me that after being sexually molested it would be more likely yhat problems
later with sexual response would be psychological rather then physical, unless
something physically was damaged. That stuff about hormones and blood flow
sounds awfully wrong to me.
Agsousa,
I was being facetious when
I referred to the whipped cream. It is stupid to make obscure jokes to someone
who has not the same command of one's language -- I plead stupid. But then, the
definition of facetious is that one makes an attempt at being amusing -- says
nothing about succeeding.
Would not surprise me one bit if Cristoforo
Columbo were from Portugal rather than Genoa. As it goes, history is usually
written, or re-written, by the winners. The Portuguese never succeeded in
winning North America, not that you guys didn't want to. You should never had
made that treaty with Spain to divide interests in the Indies.
Lisbon,
the oldest city! You are a dreamer. Are you sure you Portuguese do not confuse
Homer's with Joyce's Ulysses?
Were you being facetious about the
American Indian?
What is the nature of Anthony Burgess' book that would
appeal to me?
Rhoda,
I sent you an e-mail recently.
Toby,
L. Ron Hubbard. The man who made fantasy a religion. I
wouldn't send them anything for fear I would get on a mailing list...
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823 Sun Feb 7 14:51:18 PST 1999
Hi all,
Hmm, I've noticed no answers to my question. But, NIE-way, if
you know and are too embarrassed to talk about it on here (trust me, it took all
my courage to actually ASK the question) you can just send me an e-mail. As I
said before, I'd rather not ask my anatomy teacher because he'd restate and
answer the question really loudly and embarass me big time.
Thomas -
Mulan (name meaning: magnolia) is a girl written about in a poem from China. It
was written back in the 4th or 5th century I think. The basic plot is this -
Mulan's father is called to serve in the army when the Huns invade China, but
her father was injured in battle many years before and would surely be killed if
he fought. Women weren't allowed in the army and her parents had no sons, so
Mulan disguised herself as a boy and fought in the war for her father. She went
ten years without being noticed, and after returning home recieved the highest
honor. She married one of her commanding officers. Mulan may have been a real
person but there's not enough evidence to prove that theory.
Jack -
thanx, I'll check out that website.
Bai bai, all,
Allein
Caroline Heske erannon@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Heske/there.html Sun Feb 7 13:51:08 PST 1999
My writing has slowed again to a virtual stop. A sort of 1 word per minute if
I'm lucky. It seems whenever I get a burst of creativity, I get one of these to
make up for it. I need something to inspire me - something more than the dread
of the driving lesson I'll soon be having.
We don't have Kings, we're an
autonomous collective.
Toby B torhyth@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/area51/nebula/1145 Sun Feb 7 12:38:39 PST 1999
Lena: The Writers of the Future Contest is SF/F in a competition form. It
doesn't cost anything other than postage, if you've read the books you can find
the guidelines in the back. I have been submitting to the contest since I first
seriously picked up the quill when I was fourteen years old. Some people have
issues with submitting because L. Ron Hubbard provided the money, and his
institution, the Church of Scientology handles the money he left behind for the
contest. I personally don't care. I won an honorable mention a year ago, but no
one has beaten down my door to beg me for the story, so oh well. I am still
submitting, hoping to actually win one of these days. The honorable mention was
just a small postcard with handwriting from the judge co-ordinator.
I
would recommend sending your best and crossing your fingers. The reward for
winning is worth it, you get a workshop, prize money, and most probably seeing
your story in an anthology with high distribution (I buy mine at Wal-Mart). R.
Garcia y Robertson, along with a lot of other really good SF writers started out
in WOTF.
agsousa agsousa@esoterica.pt http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 11:55:55 PST 1999
Hello, everybody!
I'm still on my weekend, immersed in newspapers,
book reading and a little bit of TV watching. Very little writing.
I've
just broken my promise of avoiding Internet on weekends and you, folks, are
responsible for that, so fascinating it is to follow your
"interactions" (Jack's word).
Jack: downloading and connection
speeds O.K. Thank you.
Much obliged to all who praised my English. I
wish I could say the same of the English of some of you, folks... So, I say it
:) (Arly, just kidding, no offence.)
Tom: Why did you throw cream on the
face of someone who called you mature? It's a nice English word, as in
"this wine has matured nicely", or "mature opinions". I'm
sure you wouldn't like to be called *immature* instead. Please inform me if
*mature* has a different meaning in America and in England. Thanks in advance.
Cristopher Columbus might very well have a house on Madeira Island as you
said. He married a woman from Porto Santo, Filipa Moniz, daughter of Bartolomeo
Perestrelo, explorer and administrator of the said island. Did you know that,
some four or five years ago, Mascarenhas Barreto, a historian, cast doubts on
the nationality of Cristopher Columbus? He might have been Portuguese and not
from Genoa. Most Portuguese historians vehemently rejected Barreto's theory.
Nobody here seems to wants to have as a compatriot a chap who did not know that
the shortest sea route to India was eastward and who died believing he had
reached India when not even North America had he touched just the so called
"West Indies". Holy ignorance!
Incidentally: I haven't noticed
any American Indian writing here. Are you Indian, Lena, Rhoda, Arly? I would
like to be an Indian in the land of the free. Indians are the noblest of
Americans, aren't they? They are as free as the buffallo roaming on the prairie,
etc. If I were an Indian I wouldn't like Cristopher Columbus. I would be wrong,
of course: he had a pretty advanced mind for his time.
Rachel, the
oldest living city in the world IS Lisbon. Legend has it that it was founded by
Ulysses, and, of course, living here, I cannot thing differently, could I? Nice
questions are are asked.
Well, I must go now. My webwitch day is Monday.
I am reading a book called HERE COMES EVERYBODY, by the excellent Anthony
Burgess. I recommend it to Tom and Hootie. I'll try to find something more
adequate for the faithful story-tellers. More about that tomorrow or the day
after, if you do not kill me for something I asked. y the bye, since we threw
away fascism here we eat Big Brothers for breakfast each of us, honest men, must
fight against that monster as soon and quickly as possible. Big Brother likes
fear. Oh yes, sir, he does.
Lena feylena@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sun Feb 7 10:26:19 PST 1999
Olvia - Congrats! I'm certainly envious.
Jai - Well, I feel so much
better about qualifying for a job in programming - I can do the C++ and love
Monty Python. "But father... I'd rather... SING!" "No, no, no,
stop the music, STOP THE MUSIC!" Yeah buddy!
Another great movie is
Robin Hood: Men In Tights. Anybody here seen that one? I can, sadly enough,
quote the entire movie line for line. Oh, the things we do with our lives...
"Unlike all the _other_ Robin Hoods, I can speak with an english
accent."
-Lena
W. Olivia Race nicirace@compuserve.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 22:55:37 PST 1999
Okay, Okay, I swear this is the last post. And actually since it's early
morning I guess that makes this my first official post of today. But I can't
sleep because I am so jazzed right now.
I FINALLY got the chapter that
was giving me hell done. I sat and stared at the blank screen until my fingers
started typing. I actually like the way it fits into the plot. I have a few
alterations to make to a previous chapter to help with the flow into this
chapter but man oh, man do I feel like I accomplished something. I am far from
done (many edits and proof reading are still to come) but the darn novel is
actually finished in terms of this draft.
Anyway, I had to share my glee
with you guys since you've all been so supportive. Now I have to try to get at
least a couple of hours shut eye before the kid gets up.
See ya...
Jai Jai@towersoft.com.au http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 22:19:48 PST 1999
Greetings all,
Long time no read ( well a day or two anyway ).
Speaking of good fantasy I just read a good story over the weekend though I
won't tell you who the Author is else she might get a big head :)
Strong
female characters, I must admit I don't worry about strong females much, I just
take each character as they come. I do have strong females so I mustn't be
totally sexist, good to know.
Jack - I don't seem to be having any
problems, text is pretty quick to download.
Lena - I love that movie
absulotly love it, I think that is the only movie I can watch an infinate number
of times and still laugh, quite an acheivment.
"One day boy all this
will be yours."
"What the curtins?"
"No the land as
far as you can see."
"But I don't want all that I just want
to..."
"Cut that out. When I first came here they said you'd be
daft to build a castle in the swamp but I built one anyway and it sunk into the
swamp. So I build another one and it sunk into the swamp. So I build a third one
which burned down, fell over then sunk into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed
and that's what you'll get, the strongest castle in all England."
I
better stop. I think it comes with the job -- must be able to program in C++ and
love monty python,
Jai
Jack Beslanwitch jack@forwriters.com http://www.baka-con.org/ Sat Feb 6 22:10:51 PST 1999
Allein: another possibility for anime is Bakacon which is a Japanese anime
convention that takes place in SeaTac over the April 23-25 weekend. Their
dealers room entails mutliple tables of Japanese anime, plus a series of 24 hour
video rooms with anime of all different stripes playing both on small and large
screens. Also, I am sure if you get in touch with the folks putting on this
convention, especially Edric he would likely be able to direct you to some
excellent choices for anime.
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823 Sat Feb 6 20:04:59 PST 1999
S.K.S. - I, too, would like to visit the Chinatown in SF, I've never been
there. The one I went to is in Seattle and there are only three places you can
really buy Japanese Anime.
S.N. Arly - I visited your webpage and I like
the background. I didn't have much of a chance to look around though, but I
bookmarked it and I'll be sure to go back.
Okay, I want to ask you guys
something and, yes, it is research for my story. I'd rather ask all of you than
have to face my anatomy teacher. As most of you know, Allein is constantly
molested throughout my story - in the first story it's by his uncle. K, so, if
someone is forced into a sexual act can they still become aroused and if so, how
much. Because, I've heard that girls can but guys can't because when guys are
forced and don't want to (or, in Allein's case, scared), their bodies don't
produce a certain hormone or their blood moves to the core of their body (near
the heart, I think) or something (I don't remember, sex ed was back in sixth
grade).
Well, I should get my beauty sleep.
Bai bai.
Allein
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 19:13:11 PST 1999
W. Olivia Race,
I see you did finally get to my critique. See, it
wasn't bad now was it. And no, your story didn't stink. Quite the contrary
actually.
Caroline, thanks for the comments on my female characters.
It's one thing for me to say that I think I wrote strong female characters, but
it means a lot more when you say it. As for them being exceptionally good
looking, remember, the setting was basically a club for alpha types (both male
and female.) One had to be exceptional just to be average!
Lena,
"It's only a harmelss little bunny!"
W. Olivia Race nicirace@compuserve.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 17:51:31 PST 1999
Ok, so I'm not done yet for the night....
On strong female
characters: I almost think it's my duty to present female characters as strong
and self sufficient. My novel revolves around a very independent female
protagonist. In the first draft, most people who read it found her too *bitchy*
and unlikable. So, then I had to find a better balance and explain why she was
the way she was. Would a male protagonist have to justify why he was strong and
independant? Maybe, maybe not. Don't get me wrong. I feel the changes I made and
the explanations of her past have made my protagonist richer and also added
interesting elements to the overall plot, but it still makes me wonder.
I'll shut up now. I don't often go on rants like this one, I promise.
But, I felt it had to be said.
G'night all
Caroline Heske erannon@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Heske/erannon/erannon.html Sat Feb 6 17:21:41 PST 1999
While I think it's good they're giving female characters more bite these
days, I wish they'd do it genuinely instead of tokenly. Unfortunately it is more
usual to write a story with mostly male characters, then include one or two
women - and make them absolutely unrealistically perfect. It's like these people
have been told 'market research tells us the strong woman is in so you better
let them kick butt here and there' without giving them the depth of personality
to do so. There are characters like Anastasia, who sort of wander through life,
then at the end display an amazing ability to crush the bad guy under their high
heel! Puh-lease! (with apologies to anyone who enjoyed that movie). Strength is
something you find within yourself, it needs to develop, and it doesn't
necessarily have to be expressed in a good right hook. By the way, SKS, I though
Sarah and Gwen were great characters and (although exceptionally good looking)
believable.
Still, while we're on this topic, what about weak men? For
example, Elizabeth's lover in 'Elizabeth' (I forget his name, played by that
Fiennes guy)... Was anyone else simply wishing through the entire film that he'd
grow a backbone?
W. Olivia Race nicirace@compuserve.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 17:13:32 PST 1999
Hi all.
Jack: I can load the Notebook just fine. And coming from
someone w/ a 486 66DX, this is an accomplishment beyond words.
I have
really bad memory retention sometimes. Reading all the posts is fun, but
draining.
Thomas: I have sent out several short stories that I could
have kicked myself for sending after reading them. Typos, POV screw ups, the
list goes on and on. Now I have at least tro people read them first. And then I
check it again and again. Sometimes being anal retentive is a good thing!!!
SKS: Sorry but I haven;t gotten to your critique. And why would I be mad
at you? Don't scare me. Did my story stink that much?
Ah, the mosh pit.
When I was a reckless punk we just slammed into each other. There was no *pit*.
And, I too like the Chieftains, the Pogues, and just about anything except for
Barbra Striesand, Yanni, and rap....
Anyhow, I have avoided my weekend
job (struggling writer) for long enough
Good writing all....
Lena feylena@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 17:07:36 PST 1999
Rachel - Isn't it ironic that we read a book to forget about our troubles in
writing one?
I do not believe that a strong woman character needs to be
able to fight, to argue, or to be 'strong' in a masculine sense of the word. I
enjoy women characters who know what they are, and aren't scared to be
themselves. And I agree with SKS, some authors overdo the "power to
women" theme a bit much and end up with a character that is overbearing,
cocky, and annoying.
Hootie - It sure does seem as if every new fantasy
writer is named "The Next Tolkien." I read an interview with a fantasy
author once who said he did not want to be the next Tolkien, he wanted to be the
first one of himself. (I don't remember his name) The critics need to drop that
overused phrase from their reviews.
What is your name? What is your
quest? What is your favorite color?
-Lena
(Lena, to discover the
purpose of 42, blue... or was it green? AAGH!)
Rachel danolson@sprint.ca http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 16:31:38 PST 1999
Hey all
I don't often give much info on what I do and don't like
here, but I think music is one I can join in on. I love Dire Straits, CCR,
Stevie Ray Vaugh, ZZ Top and here's a kicker Men at Work (No I am not kidding)
In truth I like most music. All music, well except RAP music. It makes my brain
hurt.
Hum, I have been going along so well with the two stories I'v been
working on and now all of a sudden I'm stuck. I'v tried two different story
lines from where I am and don't like either of them. I guess Its on to number
three, maybe that will work.
I don't think I will work at it for much
longer. I have written close to 10 pages and seem to be getting nowhere fast. I
think maybe I just need to slow down some.
I have some excellent reading
set up for this evening. I just love a good story. Takes my mind of my troubles.
Take care all
Rachel
CateG cgabriel@whitemtns.com http://www.onq.org/ Sat Feb 6 11:47:21 PST 1999
This isn't to follow any current thread, but is offered as information to any
of you writers who might be considering self-publishing. Any feedback about
www.onq.org would be most welcome. The best of luck to all.
CateG
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 09:35:39 PST 1999
S.N.Arly--you quoted Monty Python, but don't know about the Spanish
Inquisition? For shame! But you got me on the whole Disney thing. I'll confess,
and you don't even have to put me in the comfy chair (more Python reference).
S.K.S.--Sultans is a great song, as is Cold Shot. Thanks for keeping
them alive.
In my book, I also have a strong female character (as we've
defined them here), but in mine she's the bad guy (pardon me, my gender slip is
showing), and a man defeats her. I guess I missed the P.C. boat on that one.
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 09:11:47 PST 1999
Hey all,
Allein, I'm green with envy. I'd kill to be able to visit
chinatown in SF.
Hootie, my band does a great version of Dire Strait's
Sultans of Swing. I'd like to do more numbers by them--they're music is so
moody. We also do Stevie Ray Vaughn's Cold Shot. Most of the female characters
in my book are warriors right along with the men folk, and competent warriors at
that. They don't wait around to be rescued, they are often better at their jobs
then the men, and they don't play games when it comes to sex. As a matter of
fact, it's actually the female lead who resolves the book. I guess that
constitutes too strong!
By the way, I like Disney. And while it's nice
to go see a movie that's based on fact and have it closely follow those facts, I
don't think that's essential when it comes to entertainment. I loved Aladin, and
Beauty and the Beast. As to Pochahontas and Hunchback of Notre Dame, I thought
they were just mediocre movies regaurdless of accuracy.
And don't
forget, Disney makes a heck of a lot of films under other labells, (like
Touchstone) that are great. Like any product, when you put out as many films as
they do, you're bound to have the odd stinker.
Be Well, Live Well.
S.N.Arly moobeast@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~moobeast/ Sat Feb 6 09:03:50 PST 1999
Hootie - Spanish Inquisition? Sorry slept through that one in history class.
As for tracking the conversation from lit to Disney, I believe Allein
mentioned Mulan and yesterday you dragged Disney, kicking and screaming into the
discussion. Although Disney makes a good characture for the literary world in
America.
Allein - I also thought Mulan needed a PG rating. There was a
lot of death, murder, that whole war thing, you know. But it's my favorite as
well.
Rhoda - Don't stress yourself too much. Chances are good it'll be
OK. I always mail that stuff myself and it always seems to get there and back
again just fine.
Lena - I was the one in the mosh pit. Again and
again...
As to what makes a strong fremale character, I think we only
need to look at what makes a strong character. You'd apply the same principles
to whoever your character is, male or female. SOme traits of noticed for strong
characters are: independence, intelligence, wit and the ability to locate and
use what resources are to be had (a problem solver I guess you'd say). Weak
traits are weak no matter the gender as well.
S.N.Arly
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823 Sat Feb 6 08:43:54 PST 1999
Strong female characters, hmm. I have a few of those in my story - Kachik
being the main one. She's very independant, says what's on her mind and if a man
says he can do something better than her, she'll put him to the test. Her aunt,
Magiki, also feels the same way (she's not going to let her brother get the
better of her). Also, the priestesses Kocida and Chloe, are very outspoken and,
what's a good word here, spunky. But, I also have some stereotypical females in
my story - Cosmosa (not a very main character) is quiet and shy and thinks that
boys should ask girls on dates, girls should be quiet unless invited to speak
and that the man usually has more power and strength. Allein also follows the
stereotypical view of females in the story (even though, he's a boy). He's quiet
and keeps to himself and thinks that men are stronger than women (although, this
could be atributed to his being beaten and molested by men constantly).
Nie-way, I'm off to chinatown.
Bai bai,
Allein
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen Sat Feb 6 06:53:36 PST 1999
Actually I believe that any main character worth taking your time to develope
must be strong whether female, male, bad guy, hero, or heroine. If they are not
strong at the beginning of the book, they had better find some inner strength
somewhere in the book.
I think the question of strong woman charcter
versus weak has to do with cultural perceptions. In today's culture, strong
women are viewed as those women who can fight, work, and do whatever as well as
any man. Ever notice in most movies that whenever there is a contest between man
and woman the woman always wins? Today's media woman is smarter, stronger, more
sensitive, and better coordinated than today's media man.
Strength can
be seen many ways. A woman does not have to be superior to her counterpart male
in order to be strong. Jane Eyre was a strong character. She was financially
destitute, small of stature, and of low social order, yet during the novel, JANE
EYRE, she showed tremendous strength by not giving into the temptation to stay
with Mr. Rochester after finding out he had a mad wife. All through that book
people tried to put her down because she was a poor relation, a charity case, a
governess and virtual Victorian nobody, but Jane Eyre would never be put in her
place. All the while, she was respectful and totally feminine.
Though I
like to read a story with a hoydonish girl character at times, there are far too
many books out there where the heroine can ride better and shoot better than any
man. Though no one wants to read about some delicate, wilting flower, I
personally think some balance is in order, but this really is a matter of taste.
In our day and age, more women do seem to identify with the tom boy like
characters.
Happy writing!
Rhoda
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Sat Feb 6 06:26:41 PST 1999
I also listen to an eclectic assortment of music, but I will admit to liking
country. But I also like Dire Straits, Sheryl Crow, Everclear, The Moody Blues,
Indigo Girls, Stevie Ray Vaughn, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and Squeeze. But I
think that the Chieftains are my all time favorite.
How did we go from a
discussion of American Literature to the merits of Disney? Agsousa, you must be
tearing your hair out over our idiocy.
Since it was brought up, though,
what is it that makes a strong female character? I know that Marion Zimmer
Bradley wants to see them especially, but I have no idea how to do it. Although
I have to give you kudos, S.K.S.I didnt think you could make a female character
*too* strong. What did they do, torture and kill the men that defied them and
enslave all the rest?
LenaI read a blurb that said that GGK was one of
the best fantasy writers since Tolkein. Who knew that one of those things would
be right?
Jack Beslanwitch jack@forwriters.com http://www.webwitch.com/survivor/ Sat Feb 6 03:09:53 PST 1999
Of the animated features, my all around favorite to date is Prince of Egypt.
The scenes noted earlier here were so absolutely awesome I was literally blown
away. Definitely, this will be one for my DVD collection. As to Disney, I just
got Mulan and liked it well enough. It certainly redeems my opinion of how
greatly Disney could absolutely screw up a story by attempting to make it
politically correct, child friendly or romantic and always, always, always
commercially marketable. Examples of this include Hunchback of Notre Dame. The
author has got to be rolling in his grave over that one, which, BTW, was where
almost all of the characters in the movie should have been by the end of the
movie, literally. This was not a happy book and absolutely everybody dies or did
until Disney gets hold of it. Then lets not look to close at the
histerical...er... historical facts surrounding Pocohantas. Among those that I
actually liked were Alladin, Lion King and A Bugs Life. However, Prince of Egypt
outdoes them all in my humble opinion. However, while we are talking about
animated films that we enjoy or not, I want to admit a guilty pleasure or two or
three from Disney and not. Favorites from years gone by are Fantasia, Sleeping
Beauty, Lady and the Tramp and the Secret of NIMH.
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823 Fri Feb 5 21:46:13 PST 1999
I saw Ever After too and it was an awesome movie!!
As for music -
I'll listen to just about anything - except country and really heavy metal (my
brother plays heavy metal very loudly and it drives me nuts). I especially like
music from foreign countries. What I listen to depends on the mood I'm in.
Well, gotta jet, I need my beauty sleep.
Bai bai,
Allein
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri Feb 5 19:32:50 PST 1999
Hey all,
Caroline, I saw Ever After and it was one of my favourite
films this year. Of course I also like Shakespear in Love. Chick flicks? Maybe,
but that's me, tough on the outside and mushy on the inside--kinda like a
s'more. My sensi (the old chineese one)always told me that great power should
always be tempered by great compassion. No wonder those guys have the fortune
cookie market cornered!
As for strong female characters, I had someone
slam my book because they thought my female characters were too strong. There's
just no pleasing some people.
W. Olivia Race, did you receive the
critique I sent you, or are you just annoyed with me?
As for music, my
tastes are so eclectic--there's not much I don't like--except for that really
old twangy Country stuff. My taste ranges from The Ramones to Enya, Peter
Gabriel to Offspring, Adam Ant to Brittany Spears--I could go on for ever. I
used to be able to write while music was playing in the background. Now I find I
get to wrapped up in the songs and lose my concentration. I still like to listen
to music for inspiration though. Sometimes I'll listen to certain artists to set
the mood of a specific scene I'm writing. Ohe yeah, for some reason I can listen
to classical music while I write. Go figure!
Be Well, Live Well.
Lena feylena@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri Feb 5 17:47:01 PST 1999
Hullo!
I like all types of music, except for rap (nothing against the
style, just the message). ABBA is good, especially "The Dancing
Queen." It seems as if it should be a happy song, but the words are sad and
almost bittersweet. I've got a thing for Benny Goodman, and much of the new
swing music coming out recently is a nice change from much modern music.
Squirrel Nut Zippers, eh? Hell! Great song. I like Gordan Lightfoot, Counting
Crows, Tonic, Metallica, Simon and Garfunkel, Beatles, Barenaked Ladies... you
get the picture.
Caroline - All right, Beauty and the Beast! My favorite
also... it is beautiful. I did see Ever After, and that was a nice movie, but it
was definitely a chick flick.
Allein - That is the only thing that truly
annoys me about Disney movies (and movies, books, stories in general) is the
helpless female waiting for her hero to come and fight out her battle with the
bad guy. Most author's (or playwright's) idea of a strong female seems to be one
who argues a lot, who has 'spirit.' Fah! I greatly appreciate stories with
females who think for themselves yet don't have to be a total witch while doing
so. (Carefully editing my language, here...)
SKS - Mosh pit? Wow, that's
an image.
Hootie - I haven't read the Fionnavar Tapestry series, but I
have read "Tigana" and afterwards I rushed out to get "A Song for
Arbonne." I liked Tigana more, but both were excellent books. Gotta love
'em! I wish I could write like that... GGK's style of plotting his books is
fascinating to me, because all of the seemingly inconsequential details he
mentions in the first several hundred pages come together so well in the climax.
The book seems to laze along at normal speed until the very end, when everything
happens at once. I wish I could write like that... (haven't I said that already?
envy, I suppose!)
Jai - What you are meant to BE? You already are who
you were meant to be. It is discovering just what you are that is the hard part,
and discovering what you were meant to DO is part of that. I love writing, but I
know I was never meant to be a full-time author. I suppose having to continually
define yourself is part of what makes us human, but it is strange and somewhat
disturbing that you can have a talent you may never realize, a genius you may
never touch, a gift you may never give.
And no, I do not believe in
destiny.
-Lena
Caroline Heske erannon@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Heske/there.html Fri Feb 5 16:40:51 PST 1999
Disney movies - It's weird... I'm a passionate feminist and I normally can't
stand love stories, but every time I watch Beauty and the Beast I end up in
tears - I think it's simply beautiful - it has that sort of magical quality. But
apart from that, Disney isn't my favourite movie-maker (though A Bug's Life was
an excellent movie, and the Lion King had a fantastic soundtrack)...
But
has anyone here seen Ever After? I thought that was a great movie!
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen Fri Feb 5 15:41:25 PST 1999
I made it! Almost. I spent all day perfecting my two chapter entry and
synopsis. Then I printed out 3 copies of each, made my cover sheet, wrote my
check, etc. etc.
The post office here in Perryton closes at 4:30pm and
is not open on Saturday or Sunday. Well after speeding and almost running a red
light...I got to the post office at 4:32pm, and it was closed. Since the
deadline is receipt by the 13th, I really don't want to wait until Monday to
mail it so I rushed downtown to the office supply store and begged them to weigh
the package for me. They did. I have the necessary postage at home, but I am
afraid to mail it without a post office employee (As I always say leave these
weighty matters to the pros) weighing it for me and assuring me that $3.20 will
get it there. But I have decided to trust myself and mail it anyway. This is
definately out of my comfort zone.
Well there is my sad tale. But at
least it is done.
Happy writing!
Rhoda
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823 Fri Feb 5 15:30:35 PST 1999
Well, at least there are some other Disney fans here. I also didn't think the
Hunchback of Notre Dame was a movie for children. When I went to see it in
theaters some small kids had to be taken out to the lobby during the violent
parts because they were screaming and crying. I liked the movie, but I really
think it should have had a PG rating. I also liked the book more than the movie.
My favorite of them all is Mulan - because for once, the girl is the hero,
unlike the other movies. Look at them: Prince Eric had to save Ariel, Gaston
stupidly fell on his own, Hercules had to save Meg, etc. I Mulan sends a good
message that girls are just as good as guys (even though it took them long
enough).
If anyone here likes the songs from Disney, I have and am
getting more foreign Disney soundtracks. If anyone wants a copy, I'll be happy
to one or two or however many you want.
Well, that's all I have to say.
Bai bai,
Allein
PS: I'm going to Chinatown (in Seattle)
tomorrow. I'll fill you all in on the details.
Litter LitterAli@aol.com http://members.aol.com/litterali/WS/LitsPage.htm Fri Feb 5 12:56:36 PST 1999
Hi All,
Rachel you're right, Notebook takes a lot of keeping up with!
SNArly - Caught the site - nice one and thanks for the Celtic Clipart
Link - much beter than the one I had previously.
Jack - no problems here
with downloading the Workbook - soon as it opens it's straight into my Temp
Internet files.
Thomas - I have read many a book with typo's - so long
as there aren't many and the manuscript is clean and flowing it shouldn't make
too much difference - that's what editors and proof-readers are for.
Now
I'm going to have to look up all the other posts for the last few days...
All Good Things,
Litter
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri Feb 5 12:39:41 PST 1999
Rhoda-- the Chieftains are great to write to write to, especially if you are
writing fantasy or historical romance. And good luck on meeting the deadline.
Thomas-- how many of us haven't thought a story was finished, only to
discover a couple of glaring typos? Especially when you have already sent it
off.
S.N.Arly-- sorry, but nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Jack-- even more sorry. It's been a slow day at work, and I'm afraid I'm
going to force you to archive after all!
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen Fri Feb 5 11:58:35 PST 1999
S.N.Arly,
I've been an ABBA fan since 1977. I have all their albums
but nothing to play them on anymore since one of the kids broke my turntable.
I'm outclassed here. I always liked Barbra Striesand and
"blush" Dan Fogelburg. These days I listen primarily to The Chieftains
and Gospel music. I'm afraid I've never been much of a rocker, a punker, or a
heavy metal person.
My favorite all time Disney animation is BEAUTY AND
THE BEAST. It had all the necessary elements--nice music, cute characters, and a
good love story. I liked HUNCHBACK OF NORTRE DAME. If there were sexual
undertones, I am afraid they sailed right over my head. I had a difficult time
with POCHAHONTAS. Disney took glaring liberties with the history. It could have
been a great story if they hadn't felt the need to create the John Smith
romance. She was afterall only twelve when they met. POCHANONTAS II, Journey to
a New World was much better. They connected to reality with that one and left
out the New Age stuff.
I must get back to work now on my contest entry.
I've got to get it to its destination by Feb.13th--nothing like a deadline.
Happy writing,
Rhoda
S.N.Arly moobeast@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~moobeast Fri Feb 5 11:19:02 PST 1999
Sorry, but Sarah McLaughlin makes me gag. Any die hard ABBA fans out there?
Pogues? Gotta love the Pogues. I agree with SKS on the swing thing, though my
fave is The Squirrel Nut Zippers. We have a nice music scene here in the Twin
Cities; lots of clubs and a lot of variety. Some good newer (read unknown) bands
as well. It's been neat to see bands before they got big and cool (Primus Hey all Jai, Lena--that's the spirit! Don't think of the assignments as a chore, think of
them as a chance to play with the language (let Agsousa know if you have a
breakthrough, too). SN, Hey all, This is a querie about how difficult it is for people to fully download the
Notebook at this time. The reason I ask this is that we have already exceeded
100k. I am wondering if people would mind if I waited until we reached 200k
before I archived again. The level of discussion on the Notebook is excellent
and I fully endorse us continuing with this level of interaction. However, if
connections speeds in Portugal or Australia are somewhat slower let me know and
I will archive again after three days. Take care.
Lena - You know how I said my fantasy "Power of the Talismans" was
polished and ready to go? HA! Hootie - I meant you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Regarding your
comment on I want to see this formula but formulaated in a different way... I
think it's easier to learn the accent with the language. They sorta go together,
you know.
To all those who are wondering - yes I am alive. I finally got to rent Mulan
today - yeah, I know, I was going to yesterday, but they didn't have any copies
left. Today, I got the last one. I'm going to fix some popcorn and watch it
tonight. :) Ah... Jai - Have you ever wondered what you were *meant* to do? It seems to be that
everybody should be a genius at one thing, but finding that 'something' is the
hard part. A lot of writers are good, but only few are actually great.
Okay, I took the plunge, and posted a story in the workbook. Enough said, I
hope. Greetings for another fine day, Took me freaking forever to figure out what the heck ELP was. Like em. More
of a Dead Head, though. Lydia, Sorry, Hi All, Synton--I know exactly what you mean. I think that part of the "Robert
Jordan" problem is the emphasis on series, with trilogies being the most
common format nowadays. For the other... part of what we're trying to do here (I
hope) is encourage each other to find that heart and soul, and get in in our own
writings. From everything I've read, both recently and in the archives, we all
want to make our books (or stories or poems) better than what we've found at the
local bookstore. Hey all That post that started with the message to Lena about her class was mine.
Sorry about the confusion, S.K.S.
Rachel, I meant out of existence -- really must learn to type someday.
Hey all, OK, the one that began with "Hey all" was me. I have no idea who
that other one belongs to. Sheesh!
Oops, that was me.
LenaThe best advice I can think of for your class is that all writing is
practice for your writing. I know those little writing exercises can be dull and
boring, but try to find the positive. In the class I took, we had to write a lot
of silly little things, but one that I remember was the one where we had to
pretend we were in a burning building, and the only thing that would survive
would be our last letter (not plausible, but that wasnt the point). When the
others shared what they had written, I realized that they had imagined
themselves as different people, where I had written it straight from the heart,
as myself. Was mine any better? Not really. But it did make me realize how much
of myself I put in my writing, which was a very good thing to learn.
Hey all, Favorite ELP song, hmmmm. I don't really have a favorite song. My favorite
tape is "Trilogy". But then, I'm also fond of "Tarkus", and
"Brain Salad Surgery". "Karn-Evil #9" is great as are
"Lucky Man", "Rodeo (the version off of the "Trilogy"
tape is the better version for them IMHO), and "Theme for the Common
Man". I think Greg Lake has a great voice and is capable of exceptional
guitar work as in "In The Begining". But my first love in music has
always been the organ. Can anybody say KIETH EMERSON. Even such greeats as Jon
Lord of Deep Purple fame, and Rick Wakeman pale in comparison. And neither of
them are slouches. Both have extensive classical training and are exceptional in
their own right. I've been enchanted by ELP since about 1975 I guess. Just a reminder for everyone who has gotten their ICQ working and do not have
your number posted on the Chat-ICQ page, please fill out the form or email me
and I will post you. I know I have been ignoring when people get online, Rhoda
comes to mind in particular, but I have been a bit busy. Take care everyone.
Hope to be able to post some possible bits and pieces on the Workbook soon
finally and play a more active role here and in a total redesign. I know, I have
been saying that for a while too :-). Hi all. The dishes are done and the kitchen is clean. I have worked nine
hours today in the office, done my domestic duties and NOW it's finally my time.
Lena - Uh, sorry about the post there. I am full of a cold and more than a
little grumpy. Rough day with the kids, blah, blah, blah. On and on.
Top o' the evening to every one of you! Agsousa - HELLO?????? Jai, It seems that my ISP was sorry for me: miraculously, the archives appeared on
my Mac's screen and I immediately started reading all the posts of last week. It
was a good week for this forum: anthological descriptions of the state of
education in the past and today, with a taste of nostalgia, both real and
ironical. And the discussion about the sad condition of American contemporary
literature has potential to become a good one : I am looking forward to reading
Rachel's promised and already famous satire on Portuguese literary critics.
ACK!!! Sorry about that. The post I left is for Allein. I put Allein in my
E-mail address area. Sorry for the mix up. Watched Mulan with my daughter yesterday. Just thought I'd let you know it
has two more fans. I have posted another little ditty on the short story workshop. I am inviting
crits for a good reason (a selfish one). First person pov is my weak
point..sometimes I just lose sight of it all and end up messing up the tense as
I get 'excited'. Greetings, Whoa! A sudden explosion of writing in the notebook. Luckily, it's a good
thing. I don't know - I turn my back for a few hours and WHAM ! everybody hits the
Notebook ! Wow ! Hootie, Lena--I took a creative writing class in college years ago. It was both
rewarding and frustrating. The reward was focusing on having a finished product
to share with the class (there's nothing like a deadline to get you going). The
frustrating part was the teacher and students. I'm not sure what you like to
write, but I found that any kind of genre writing was considered substandard
from the start, and the opinions and critiques usually went downhill from there.
Stick with it, though. From what I've seen about the Notebook, there will be
plenty of people here to back you up. Hullo all. Oh, yeah. S.N. Arly, Agsousa - Conservative leterati? I've never been referred to as conservative
and I think I'm offended. And I'm just a lame-o genre writer so I couldn't
presume to be a literati. Least not in the land of the free. A couple of months ago, I posed a request for info here and got a good
response. Question was: how to resolve delimma of publishing stories based on
some characters S.K.S., Agsousa, I thought of another reason that we seem to obsess with being
published on this side of the pond, and that is the American perception of
artists. We, as a society, see creative people as something of leeches,
especially those that are trying to expand the discipline they work in. Unless I
am mistaken, European artists are still admired and encouraged. Hey all,
Goodweed - Thank you!
Hootie - I like a good series. You
can usually get a whole lot of character and world development that wouldn't
show up in a single book. I'm REALLY long-winded with my stories, so they'd end
up looking like Battlefield Earth if I didn't break them up. Most people are
intimidated by the books with 1 or 2K pages. But you can run a story (characters
& or world) to death in a series as well. Like any writing, it's got to be
done well to be worth spit.
Lydia/Jai/Lena - Hum a little Sinatra here.
Do be do be do... I write, therefore I am... or it that I'm a writer therefore I
write?
On Disney - I was pretty sick back in November. Watched A LOT of
TV and movies. And somehow managed to watch several Disney creations. By the end
I was so thoroughly disgusted with the messages I'd been fed that I wrote a
fairy tale in response. What I wouldn't do for a story that doesn't have
love/marriage as the prime goal. And for a female character whose brain doesn't
turn to mush once she's got her man. And such cardboard cutouts those men can
be, too. Ish.
What I did see of the Hunchback wasn't a childrens movie
at all (I found myself wondering if I was old enough to be watching it). All
those allusions to sex and all. I'm surprised parents didn't freak out over
that. But they probably thought, it's a cartoon. It's Diseny. It can't hurt
anyone.
Thomas - I'll be less vague in the future for you then.
Never been to Times Square (don't know that I ever care to), so I'm not
sure what they did to it. I'm sure it was supposed to be some sort of urban
beautification/urban renewal project that they could claim a whole lot of money
in charitable donations.
S.N.Arly
"...there's nothing Neitczhe
couldn't teach you bout the raising of the wrist. Socrates himself was
permanently pissed..."
Rachel danolson@sprint.ca http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri
Feb 5 09:42:54 PST 1999
Wow, It is a full time job just keeping up with this site!
Jack - I'm having no trouble with downloading the notebook.
Take
care all
Rachel
Lydia Sweet lydiasweet@yahoo.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri
Feb 5 09:21:03 PST 1999
On "What are you meant to do (be)? Applaud, applaud,
applaud.
Thomas,
I know your typos can make you feel sloppy(?),
but I don't know that I would worry overmuch at this point. I don't mean that
you shouldn't try to have a perfect MS for submittal, but I don't think that
they would sink your ship, so to speak. I have read many printed books that have
many typos. At this juncture at least you have recognized them and can make
corrections should an agent or publisher be interest in the work. I am not
trying to justify sloppy or unprofessional submissions, by any means, but I
wouldn't lose sleep over it either.
Disney movies? I'm still a kid
at heart and really enjoy watching most Disney productions with my family. I
agree most are predictable ,but I can expect a laugh or two, a pretty good
musical score and a pleasant evening with my kids. Sleeping Beauty is still my
favorite. I suppose because it was the first I saw and the first romance story
of my memory. Yes, I still believe in dragons, fairies, handsome princes, poor
peasant girls who are really princesses and, of course, that love's true kiss
can save anyone.
Lydia
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri
Feb 5 07:58:14 PST 1999
On this subject of fantasy, I think I can combine a
few threads here (I'm all humility today).
The Fantasy genre, as I said
before, seems dependent on the series. Whether this is publisher or reader
driven, well, it's probably both. If you read a story set in a fascinating and
intriguing world, then you usually want to read more stories about that world.
This is all well and good; after all, even the Lord of the Rings was a series.
One of the problems I have with Mr. Jordan, though, is that he is not writing a
series, he's writing a soap opera: all of the characters seem to be hanging by
threads from book to book, and you can't stop reading the series for a while and
then come back, without a good synopsis of the previous books. I know that I am
hesitant about picking up the last couple of books, since the last time I read
one, it was two years ago.
I think the series is best when each book has
a satisfying resolution. The Sword of Truth series is a decent example. I have a
friend who started with the second book, and although she will go back and read
the first, it didn't confuse her not to have read it.
Let's drag Disney
in here (kicking and screaming, I'm sure). The comforting thing about them is
that you know, usually, what you're in for: a good story, a humorous sidekick, a
few Broadway style songs. But even Disney, as trite as they are considered to
be, stretches the boundaries of what they do every now and then. The Hunchback
of Notre Dame was not really a kid's movie. Pochahantas did not end with
"They got married and lived happily ever after". And in Mulan, they
both found an incredible story, and, from all accounts, stuck to it (perhaps
their biggest accomplishment). The point is that there is a huge crowd that will
always go see Disney movies, but at the same time, they are trying to intrigue
those who don't. A good series will do the same thing, so that even if you pick
up number four or five, it will encourage you to seek out the first ones,
without demanding it. (Loved Mulan; dont make me watch Bambi ever again)
I don't know how many other genres are series oriented, but I think that
the good ones, the ones that last, will not be the same thing over and over
(like Xanth), but will subtly stretch and change both the characters and the
world. And yet stand on their own. It's a tremendous challenge, but if it's done
right, then the world you create will have a life of it's own, like Middle
Earth, and will stick in the consciousness of the audience long after the books
have been shut.
And I heartily second the recommendation of Guy Gavriel
Kay. He wrote one series, the Fionnavar Tapestry, but his others have been stand
alone books (although he manages to mention Fionnavar at least once in each
one). I liked "A Song for Arbonne the best, I think.
S.N.ArlyI
suppose youre right, since just learning the accent certainly felt like learning
a language, without being able to communicate with the Scots any better.
Thomas booklink@ptd.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri
Feb 5 06:15:24 PST 1999
Carpenter? I ain't no slouch, but I must admit you lost me there
too -- nail on the head, indeed...
Re: Mulan. My wife, who keeps up with
some of the pop culture, already "learned" me on that one.
My
main beef with Disney is what the company has done to my beloved Times Square in
Manhattan. I would rather see the sleaze again than to see the place devoid of
character and made to look like what a city block is supposed to look like in
the world of make believe. The last time I walked the street a few weeks ago, I
felt like it was indeed a "small, small world".
SKS,
On publishers, you and me are tante sympatico!
Lena,
Ah,
that age-old question! I know exactly what I want to do when I grow up -- but
everyone else calls it LAZY. I mean, can you actually be working sitting in that
room all day supposedly writing?
Olivia,
Writing should make you
want to pull out your hair, and if you saw me you'd see I succeeded in doing
just that. Passion is loving and hating something deeply and at the same time --
think marriage -- and without that passionate push-pull you could not produce
art, or babies if you are still thinking marriage.
Goodweed,
Revision! Did you say something about revision? Just yesterday, after I
went over and over and over my book proposal to be sure it was clean and tight,
I glanced at it one more time -- found three typos. The sad thing is, I sent
copies of it out two days ago (with the typos) because, I thought, it was clean
and tight. The publishers who receive the copies, if they read the proposal,
will think I am a novice, and there is nothing I can do about it now.
Proofreading and revisions are the writer's true endless nightmares --
annoying and frightening, but necessary for survival.
To all on the
workbook. As soon as I get past a few deadlines (next week) I shall be making my
way to the new submissions, and know I shall be satisfied with what I find
there.
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri
Feb 5 05:35:48 PST 1999
Jack, I currently have no problem downloading the Notebook
at over 100K.
Lena, you can count me in there as someone who has heard
of ELP, though I was never overly fond of them. I'm with W. Olivia Race--the
first band I ever played in was a Punk band. We hit it when it was new and were
the only band in the area to play the Sex Pistols, the Clash, The Kinks, The
Ramones and countless other "the's" I can't remember. I'm also a big
fan of Sarah Maclaclan, and the big band revival is way cool (Colin James, Brian
Setzer, Cherry Popp'n Daddies.)
I loved Robert Jordans WOT series up
until about the fifth or sixth book. That's when he seemed to run out of things
to say, but decided to say them anyway. I haven't bothered to read the last few.
It's a shame really, because if he would have tied the series up in four or five
books, he could have had (IMHO) something that might have compared with Tolkien.
Synton, As to the fantasy genere loosing its oomph, whose fault is that?
Probably the publishers. As noted here before, if they're only willing to
publish formula writing, then all we're going to see are rehashed plots and
cardboard characters. Unfortunately the publishing industry is much like the TV
industry--finds something that works and then beat it to death.
Can
there possibly be another industry as confused as the publishing industry? We've
all heard the cries of "Give us the same, only different." What other
industry expects the utmost in professionalism from it's people, yet acts in
such an incredibly unprofessional manner itself. They can't even agree on a
standard manuscript format--does the name, title and page number go in the upper
right corner or upper left; one inch margins or one and a half; cover letter or
no. Yes, we accept unsolicited manuscripts, but we probably won't read them. We
only accept manuscripts submitted through an agent. Sorry, our agency is only
accepting writers who are published. And God forbid you should do something to
offend an editor (like write a book with a woman in it, after all, he's married
to one and she drives him nuts)Apparently these people are so thin skinned that
you have to be anal retentive just to apply for the job.
All you can do
is the best work you can, presented in as proffesional a manner as possible, and
then leave it to the fates. After all, publishers are in the business to
make money, and if you can present them with something that will do that for
them, they'll probably overlook the fact that you signed your cover letter
"sincerely S.K.S. Perry" and not "Yours truly" the way they
like it.
Be Well, Live Well.
Jack Beslanwitch jack@forwriters.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Fri
Feb 5 02:48:41 PST 1999
Jai Jai@towersoft.com.au http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 21:42:16 PST 1999
What sort of question is that?
"Have you ever wondered
what you were *meant* to do?"
Have I ever wondered what I am meant to
BE?
Haven't we all? Don't we wonder every day when we awake? Isn't this just
the biggest question each one of us askes in our life? Well I do wonder, I
wonder every day, I wonder where my life is headed where our life as a race is
headed. You believe in destiny? Perhaps all writers can be great. Perhaps I only
write because I lived so long without much social contact as a kid and developed
a rich imagaination. I am who I am, we all are, so long as we become great in
our own minds what does it matter :)
Jai
Goodweed of the North bflowers@northernway.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 20:56:50 PST 1999
I made a hard-copy of it and presented it
to my wife (who has never expressed an interest in fantasy) and figured she
would give it a half-hearted perusal at best. Was I ever wrong. The lady is a
great proof-reader. I have had parts of the novel read by some highly educated
persons, as well as the entire manuscript read by some trusted freinds. It has
been revised eight times.
It took her about five minutes to find some fo
the most important problems with the story. They were simple oversights, but
critical ones. She found that in the first eighty pages of the story, I had only
described one character, the villain. I could see all of the others in my mind,
but had forgotten that the reader couldn't. It was the same with the valley
where much of the action takes place. The story moves along quickly and all who
have read it don't miss these critical points as they quickly get caught up in
the action, dialogue, etc.
It just goes to show you that no matter how
good you think you are, there is always something to learn. Guess I needed to be
humbled yet again (heavy sigh).
You'd think that after five people had
read major potions of the book, that it would be correct in the basics.
On the bright side, she loves the story. She also tells me that some of
the passages are among the best she has read (I can feel my head swelling
again). This is going to be the last re-write. I will do no more. For all the
loving labor lavished on this work, there better be an agent and publisher out
there who sees potential in it.
Hayden; I was in a terrible hurry this
morning when I posted. I should have said hi anyway as I was about eight minutes
late for work. Glad to hear from you once more. Say hi to Jo for me too. How is
your summer? Our winter has been strange. The weather can't make up its mind. Is
it spring or winter? I hope you got a ton of quality writing time during your
hiatus. How's Matilda? But let's not get that going again, heh heh heh.
S.N.Arly; Awesome website. Very stylish, good use of color, symbology.
The site is a welcome addition to the web. Kudos to you.
Gotta go now
and correct those things pointed out to me by my wife.
Seeeeeeya;
Goodweed of the North
S.N.Arly moobeast@sprintmail.com
http://home.sprintmail.com/~moobeast
Thu Feb 4 20:19:23 PST 1999
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823
Thu Feb 4 18:41:23 PST 1999
Well, just wanted you all to know I was still around. Bye
bye.
Allein
W. Olivia Race nicirace@compuserve.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 18:32:14 PST 1999
ELP= Emerson, Lake & Palmer.......
A little too tame for my
taste. As a former punk my taste runs a little more towards Nine Inch Nails,
Nirvana, you get the idea. Although I do like stuff like Sarah Maclaclan.
And I will confess without guilt to a long love affair w/ the music of
Beethoven, Mozart and Bach..
When I write I have to listen to real lyric
driven music. I was reading a web-site for one of my favorite authors and she
wrote in a recent newletter that she always has to write to music. I'm the same
way.
Anyway, I am stuck on a scene that I want to insert into my novel.
It has to drive the story forward to the climactic scene of good v. evil and yet
fit into the events that have preceded it. I am facing a wall however and have
even tried to write the darn thing out long hand (which means I'm really
desperate). I got so frustrated last night that I ended up pulling out a much
rejected short story and tearing that apart. I often wonder how something that
gives me great joy can also make me want to tear my hair out!
Anyway, as
a result, I have a new--old story entitled "A Question of Value"; I'll
be posting it in the short story section soon. Let me know what you think...
Anyway, I have to make sure my daughter isn't reading under the covers
(so like her mama!) and tear my hair out some more over the scene that will not
*breath* some more so good night all and...
Good writing
Lena feylena@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 17:34:29 PST 1999
Hootie - Thanks for the encouragement... amazingly enough, we did have a
good assignment today. We had to write a eulogy for a person, real or fictional,
in any style you wished. I wrote a poem about the death of a young girl who
loved flowers, complete with lots of cute little flower puns. My favorite one
was "... with curls of a merry gold..." I realize it was supposed to
be serious, but I couldn't help myself!
Oh, and you are now the third
person I know who has heard of ELP - here's to little known groups from the 70s
& 80s!
Jack - I had trouble posting my message earlier. It probably
is not important, but I thought I would share. Don't panic!
Robert
Jordan. The things I could say. WoT is my favorite all-time series, but I was
disappointed with the last book, and (like the energizer bunny) the series keeps
on going, and going, and going... I'm waiting with crossed fingers for the ninth
(yes, the ninth!) book, hoping for improvement. Wheel of Time has been the
obsession of my life for the past few years, so I am not taking the
disappointment well.
Synton - Mmm, I love fantasy too. Just keep on
digging through the bad books, laugh at them and learn from their mistakes, and
cherish the good ones. I just read a very good book - "Tigana" by Guy
Gavriel Kay. You might like it.
Thomas - MATURE!!! ;-)
Goodweed
- Never been much for organs. Do you like big band?
"Why do we walk
on parkways and drive on walkways?"
-Lena
Hootie mhooten@csw.l-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 15:13:21 PST 1999
S.N.Arly--why would you think I'm a carpenter? And about the Scots
Gaelic, I offer you the best of luck. I had a friend who tried to just teach me
a Glaswegian accent, which was hard enough. I haven't had the guts to try for
the whole language.
Jai Jai@towersoft.com.au http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 14:44:32 PST 1999
Synton: Interesting question, but
what I hate more than lifless fantasy is half baked stuff, some great ideas and
good story telling that looses wind and dies. Juilian May has written some
terrible half baked stuff that I would strongly advise against reading, mostly
her newer stuff is lacking in good plot completion.
There is some good
stuff out there, let me restate that, some good new stuff. Robin Hobb, a new
writer, has written a really nice triladgy (The Assasins Aprentice) though I
hear his next set is not up to par. But I agree that there is alot more empty or
half baked fantasy than seems reasonable. I was thinking just yesterday about my
own writing process and have observed that I send off a short as soon as I
finish it thinking wow this is so cool. But it isn't, I am just blinded by
finished story bliss. It takes a few rewrites before it really becomes a story
worth reading, perhaps that is what has happened with "good" authors,
they have been able to publish their first drafts because they have a name when
infact their stories really need alot more work.
Even the famous
Magician is like this, with the first novel being really good then loosing most
of it's magic as the series progresses, until now the sequals are just a joke (
Sorry Raymond )
So don't fall into the trap of fast bucks, if you write
a brilliant first novel and it takes you a long time to write and rewrite don't
just publish your next novel before it is really complete.
I know that I
for one am no longer going to send of a just completed story. I'll let it sit
until it has been revamped a few times. It is worth waiting a month or two for
the integraty of the story since I would hate it to be published before I have
really finished writing it.
Jai
S.N.Arly moobeast@sprintmail.com
http://home.sprintmail.com/~moobeast
Thu Feb 4 14:24:54 PST 1999
Lena - Sorry about the class. Sorta ran into
that with mine. And while it's good to have an understanding of the basics and
all, I always felt like screaming, "Who cares what a simile is! Let's just
write something!"
I have now found someone to teach me Scots
Gaelic, and for free. If only I can worm it into my Thursdays (eesh). I've also
found some Gaelic resources online, so I may try my hand at teaching myself
Irish Gaelic as well. Thanks for checking my site and for the happy commentary.
Hootie - Are you a carpenter?
Allein - Got it as a Christmas
present. The receipt anyway. And I went and picked it up on Tuesday, though I
haven't had time to watch it. Can hardly wait. Such good traditional martial
arts. Such fine zenkutsu stance...
Agsousa - I'm sorry, I figured you
were ESL (or third or fourth, whatever) and it's not nice to use sarcasm with
someone who may not be fluent. But it's true that I've never been called
conservative before, and I think my friends will find it very entertaining. I
write fantasy and science fiction, so I don't get much respect as a literati in
America. You have to write contemporary literature to be a real writer. Not this
genre stuff. So I guess was just being sarcastic all over the place.
W.
Olivia - A woman in my writer's group had a story accepted by Tomorrow. It was
held for nearly six months and then the mag folded. Her story was never printed
and she was never paid, and now she has to try to resell the story to someone
else. While she did get a sales credit, it almost doesn't feel like it counts.
Synton - Welcome. I think most of us land here by accident, coincidence
or luck. A good thing that luck.
I think a lot of people lump SF and F
together. While they can commingle, they are separate genres. I do happen to
write both, but tend to lean on the fantasy side a lot more. And yah, there's a
lot of recycled plots out there that weren't really that good the first go
around.
Thomas - Actually it's Fa Mu Lan. If you're at all familiar with
the "original" Chinese myth of Fa Mu Lan you'd see that for once the
folks at Diz Ney Land didn't screw with it too much. Actually did a good job in
fact. Which can't be said for all their stuff (all that Pocahontas crap, for
instance).
S.N.Arly
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen
Thu Feb 4 14:08:57 PST 1999
I do not disagree with you, but I will say that posting
guide-lines or not posting guide-lines has nothing to do with whether or not a
publishing house really sets up a guide line. What books get accepted depends
entirely upon the good graces of the editor and the higher up editors of the
publishing house. These editors look for certain things that they believe will
enhance the sale of their books. Present them a proposal, no matter how good,
where the hero isn't introduced until page 50, and I guantee they will reject
it, and perhaps rightly so. There are industry norms and standards in romance
novels as in all genre publishing.
Perhaps this line is open to new
ideas, but those new ideas are not going to be too drastic and much different
than what other publishing houses will take. Your best indication on how
open-minded they are would be to read lots of their books and see for yourself
how much they vary. As long as the same editors are in house, over time you see
a pattern emerge, and from that pattern you will discover what they really want.
As to openess to new ideas, I am sceptical, but I have been wrong
before. I hope I am in your case. Good luck with your submission.
Rhoda
Lydia Sweet lydiasweet@yahoo.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 12:13:09 PST 1999
What I am trying to say is they are open to new ideas and do
not require a set formula.
Lydia
Lydia Sweet lydiasweet@yahoo.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 11:42:28 PST 1999
I began reading "Message in a Bottle" last night
and noticed it was published by Warner Books. "Gee", I thought,
"I don't have the submission guidelines for them." So I went browsing
just a little while ago and quess what? They don't have guidelines. They just
say send inquiry letter or synopsis along with first 3 chapters and we respond
6-8 weeks later.
Did I catch anyone's attention at all?
Lydia
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 11:22:17 PST 1999
Along this line, I will make my first attempt to post
on the short story workbook tonight. Wish me luck.
And one lasthing I
forgot earlier: I haven't heard ELP in years, but they're incredible. So count
me as number three.
Synton synton@erie.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 09:28:23 PST 1999
All: Has anyone noticed that there is a serious shortage of good fantasy
writers? I read in an essay by one, J.R.R. Tolkien, that in order to be a
considered a fantasy story, it must contain some intrinsic attributes. Most of
these revolved around the concept of being able to perform actions which the
mundane world does not allow. Some of these included, in his oppinion; the
ability to fly, to converse with flora and fauna, and the realization of eternal
youth. While I understand that the man is not God(although some might dispute
that observation), I do believe that he possesed some understanding of the
fantasy genre. I do not feel that there is a lack of books which conform to his
criteria, no, the local bookstore is usually crammed with a dizzying assortment
of titles that have more than you could ever want of the ever-present flying
dragon, or the forest maiden who's awfully chummy with the neighborhood trees.
No, the real embargo seems to be upon the supply of books that are written by
authors who really feel these things, and have the talent and insight to make
you, the paying reader, feel these things as well. You can call it lack of
imagination, or antipathy, or just the product of a dead soul that hasn't lost
the need to write for a living just because he has nothing left to write
about(Any T.S.R. novel comes to mind). The plotlines are usually recycled, the
characters are cardboard cutouts, and how many books does it take to tell a
story(Robert Jordan)? You'd be better off reading a comic book, it has more
pictures, and generally more depth.
Well, with that out of my system.
Take care all. If my oppinion offended you, feel free to yell and call me names.
Synton
Rachel danolson@sprint.ca http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 09:10:40 PST 1999
Thanks for the info.
Take care
Rachel
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 08:55:12 PST 1999
Thomas mailto:http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 07:04:58 PST 1999
Thomas booklink@ptd.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 07:03:04 PST 1999
Now that I have a new e-mail address, I am curious to see
how long it takes for the junk mail to reach me. You miserable junk mailers who
lurk on these sites make me crazy -- I know, they get the addresses in other
ways; let me have the fantasy.
Rachel,
Babylon, I believe, was
located where Baghdad is now -- pretty old. Of course, Persia might be in the
running, perhaps Persepolis. But I go with Babylon (Baghdad), if only for its
proximity to the first city -- Ur. Won't it be interesting if it is true and
teachers must explain to children the wisdom in bombing the oldest city our of
existence.
Agsousa,
For the sake of the Big Brother snoops who
may be lurking, we all assume in your list of loves the coke refers to the cola
one!!!
The last person who called me mature to my face went home with
whipped cream on his -- but thanks for the compliment.
In my view,
Hemingway was a hack. The "Old Man" started a particularly copied
formula genre, after he stole the idea for it from Gertrude Stein.
I am
both glad and sorry to hear that writers are not subsidized in Portugal. It is
interesting to juxtapose your attitude about writing with your government's,
seeing that the government funds other arts. I am glad, however, that they do
not subsidize writers, for now I do not feel alone -- sad, though, because
writers should not have to work a thousand jobs so that they could engage in one
love.
I recently got interested in Portuguese history when I did
research for an article I wrote about Madeira wines, and during research for a
series I am writing concerning the history of wine. I want one day to visit the
island, before your government gives it completely over to the hotels.
Incidentally, did you know that Christopher Columbus had a home on
Madeira? Also, Madeira wine was once extremely popular here; it went untaxed for
many years, and it was used to toast our first president's inaugural, and to
line Thomas Jefferson's well-stocked wine cellar. Madeira was indicated in a tax
revolt at Boston Harbor a decade before the famous Tea Party, on a ship, The
Liberty, owned by John Hancock. Fascinating history!
Anyway, I believe
that writing is a uniquely individual artistic impulse, like our unique blood
type and DNA. No amount of training or education should change that
individuality -- agents and publishers be damned.
SKS,
According
to your quote, if I were an agnostic I would believe that agents and publishers
were sent from God; I am, and they were.
Olivia,
The article I
wrote about Madeira was killed, rebron, killed and reborn before the magazine
finally snuffed itself out through incompetence. The good thing, though: I got
paid just before the article was to run, and the rag folded. Never been so lucky
as that.
SKS,
The story I made up of excised first lines and
paragraphs was pre-computer writing. I haven't got it on disk. But one day I
shall scan it in and then I will post it.
Eddie,
Speaking of
post, I shall look up the story. Your last post, I thought, was a good one
indeed.
To all who talk of Disney -- what the hell is a Mulan? I, for
one, hate the Disney people. They have taken something great and innovative and
made it shlock. But that is only my opinion.
I must write my weekly
diatribe, I mean, column -- I already wrote the diatribe.
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 05:59:14 PST 1999
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 05:57:19 PST 1999
mailto:http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 05:56:38 PST 1999
AgsousaI think that I asked if European writers were supported by the
government, but finding out that most of them work a second job makes them that
much more familiar to most of the writers here. Also, I agree with Lena: you
speakor should I say writevery well in English. If you hadnt mentioned you were
Portuguese, I dont think anyone would have suspected that English wasnt your
first language.
Rachelyour kids ask good questions, but ones that are
really difficult to answer. Since I dont know the answer (and suspect the
archaeological community probably doesnt have a consensus on it either), my only
advice is to start teaching them how to use the library. But you knew that,
didnt you? ;)
Oh, BTW, don't ever think you have to be something special to
jump in on an "intellectual" conversation. Yours could be the opinion
that sheds the most light. And I know for me, I make most of it up as I go
along.
Thomas--you ought to post your story made up of first lines and
paragraphs. I'll bet it's entertaining, and more than a little enlightening.
mailto:http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 05:56:03 PST 1999
Agsousa, thanks for the words of confidence on the rejection
thing. I can only hope I was rejected for all the those nice reasons you
mentioned, and not because my story sucks. I take comfort in the fact that if
they people here are any indication, my stories were rejected for all the
"right" reasons, so maybe I am an artist after all. By the way,
"Dang you talks nice fer a four-en-ner!"
Synton, welcome
fellow traveller. We're a friendly bunch here, and throw only the occasional
hissy fit or temper tantrum. It helps to keep the senses sharp. A fresh POV is
always welcome--just ask Agsousa.
Rachel, you, dull. Hardly! Having
conversed with you frequently this past week I would hardly call you dull. In
fact, as with many of us here, I wonder where you find the time to write.
As for Mulan, I enjoyed that movie a lot, but I don't think it was even
it the same league with Prince of Eygpt. There were a few scenes in that movie
(the burning bush, passover and the parting of the Red Sea) that were visually
stunning and actually made me feel that it could have happened that way.
That's quite an accomplishment for an atheist? agnostic? like myself.
agnostic--someone who doesn't believe in God but still blames him for
all their problems.
Be Well, Live Well.
Synton synton@erie.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 05:04:18 PST 1999
Greetings All,
I, although by no means new to the art form of
writing, am new to this site. As such, I hope that I can be the recipient of
your goodwill and fellowship.
I stumbled upon this forum by accident, not
knowing exactly what I was looking for but vaguely confident of the direction it
lay in. Like Colombus before me, I set out in search of something not truly
defined, not clearly seen. Also like him, while what I found was not what I had
expected, it was no less beautiful for being so.
My joy at inadvertently
finding this place was of no small measure. During my lifetime I have spoken
with only one other individual who has shared my love of the written word; and
she, I am sorry to say, is no longer with me. It is comforting knowledge when
one finds that he is not truly alone. It makes the world seem less big, and your
fellow man's voice sound less harsh.
I look forward to future corespondences
and further discussions. I will apologize in advance for any misspellings,
having found that as a writer I know less than I should about the laws of the
english language, and know more of the words that comprise it than I can claim
intimacy with. I will also apologize for the fact that I sound longwinded; I am.
Like the rock or the tree, or the two young lovers that pass them by as they
stroll through the park; I only know what I have been made to know, and can be
no different.
SYNTON
Goodweed of the North bflowers@northernway.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 04:44:18 PST 1999
I
better quit now. After all, this is "Writer's Notebook, not Goodweeds
personal musical favorites. Besides, if I'm not out the door in about 3 minutes,
I'll be late for work.
Seeeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North
Jack Beslanwitch jack@forwriters.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Thu
Feb 4 01:32:36 PST 1999
BTW, I really like the interactions that have developed here lately and
have to thank Agsousa for getting a discussion of American literature flowing.
Different points of view are always welcome here and helpful I think. And I must
second the motion that your English is very very good indeed. I shudder to think
what I would do with Spanish, my one language that I took several courses in
several decades ago. At any rate, hasta manana.
W. Olivia Race nicirace@compuserve.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 20:44:53 PST 1999
Ever try an edit a three hundred page draft a page at a time on the
computer. YIKES. I could print the darn thing out but it takes too long with an
ink jet printer. I'll have to use my laser jet at work. My eyeballs are
burning...
Well, my short story was supposed to be in the magazine it
was accepted into (a small non-profit mag out of California) by January. I
called the editor who just so happens to operate out of his house and his wife
is co-editor and in charge of putting this mag together. So, she's had computer
problems and the issue won't be out until the end of THIS month. (quarterly and
a quarter publication schedule?)I never worked so hard not to get paid in my
life. Not to mention the long distance call (which my kind and generous company
is paying for :) Does anyone else have any horror stories like this? Please
don't make me feel like I'm in this alone...
Anyway...
Ashling:
I'll light a fire under your chair if you light one under mine.
Rachel:
Thanks for the pep talk
Snarly: I agree w/ your take on Marion Zimmer
Bradley. I grew up reading the Darkover series and idolized her. Then I got
rejected by her. Reading her requirements makes me dizzy! And I have to be
honest. It is very rare that I find a story in her magazine than does ANYTHING
for me. I still love Darkover though...BTW, I'll check out the changes on your
site tonight.
Enough procrastination. Good night all and good writing.
Rachel danolson@sprint.ca http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 19:44:17 PST 1999
Anyway. I know that I am not dull and boring, at least not all of the
time. (wink)
Everyone - I need some help here. My children are always
coming up with questions. Who's children aren't, but mine seem to come up with
some tricky ones that often have me doing a chunk of research before I can
answer. I don't like to just make things up or guess at it, but I really don't
feel like going on a historical jaunt today.
The question is - What is
the oldest city in the world. Oh yah, and this city still has to be in existance
today and not just some deserted pile of rocks, they want people in it. The best
I could come up with is that I suspected it would be somewhere in the Middle
East.
Anyone know?
Thanks
Rachel
Lena feylena@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 19:24:38 PST 1999
Rachel - I have never known a
person who was completely dull and boring, so it is very unlikely you would be
the first. Have a little faith. After all, Barney is not without some
educational merit; think of all those great songs you learn.
Avatar - I
should probably go into the archives and grab the story but, as noted, laziness
seems to be catching these days. I'll wait for you. :-)
Agsousa - You
speak English very well. VERY well. Makes me ashamed of the skills I have in my
second language, Spanish. I am about as close to fluent as... well, I would
write an appropriate analogy except after all this discusion on art and
literature my little analogy would sound very weak. Let us leave it at this: I
am not fluent.
On American literature, I agree there were many good
authors in America, which (as you said) makes the current 'popular' authors look
all the more pitiful. I usually like the writers who are not popular, who do not
write to the public at large - but I also read many of the better known books,
to get a taste of what is out there and what supposedly normal people read.
Gives me something to talk about with others.
Goodweed - I seem to
recall a comment from way back when, about Emerson Lake & Palmer. If so,
congratulations, as you are the now the second person I know who has even heard
of ELP. Do you have a favorite song? Mine is "Cei La Vie" (oh, did I
kill the spelling on that one - apologies in advance)
Rhoda - I really
did like the plot summary of your book. I've never been much for romances, but
every once in a while a romance is a break from the world. A bit like a glass of
milk and a plate of freshly baked chocolate chip cookies. (yum) Just don't tell
anyone else I've got a weak spot for romances, eh? All my friends seem to think
I read stuff like War and Peace (which, by the way, I have never read) all the
time, and I wouldn't want to disillusion them.
SN Arly - Loved your
website, how it is designed, EVERYTHING! I hope you get the rest of your links
up soon, and good luck.
Toby B - I made it out to your website too.
Whew, was I busy! I noticed you won an award for the L. Hubbard contest for new
writers... I have been considering entering a story to that contest. Any advice?
Allein - What is your favorite Disney movie? Mine is Beauty and the
Beast. I have not seen Mulan yet, but soon!
A big reason I am going to
stick with the creative writing class is, as Hootie pointed out, the existance
of deadlines adds a bit of urgence to finding an ending. I am awful for leaving
unfinished stories lying around, so this class should hopefully leave me with a
few finished stories. That is, if the teacher actually lets us write anything.
Today we did alphabet poems, where each word had to start with the next letter
of the alphabet, such as "A Big Canine Digs Every Friday..." Yup.
Great literature, right there.
Have a day,
-Lena
Rachel danolson@sprint.ca http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 17:57:39 PST 1999
Did you get my e-mail? Hum, well in case you
didn't I don't feel I have the experience or education to get into a debate with
you, let alone one that would flame up into anything. If we were very, very
lucky I might be able to get a small spark. As for me, my temper and my unposted
words. I have enough sarcastic comments to take down a nation, but for the most
part I try to keep them to myself as I really don't see how those sort of
unkindness helps anyone.
I think Agsousa that you are under the
misguided impression that I am an exciting or interesting person. I assure you I
am not. I am about as dull and boring as an individual can get. Often the most
intelligent conversation that I get the opportunity to engage in through the day
involve what produce is on sale at the grocery store, or if things are not so
stimulating I will be left to discuss the latest episode of Barney.
Don't get me wrong. For me these are often amazing and mind expanding
conversations, but hey if you want to get into the literary stuff I'd have to
suggest looking to some of the more experience people on this site. I think
Agsousa that you are way out of my league.
Now then I hope that three
posts in about 10 minutes will be it for me. I have to get food on the table
before my children go on the war path.
Take care
Rachel
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen
Wed Feb 3 17:42:02 PST 1999
If I'd only known. I should have stayed on longer only I had my
glasses on and my eyes couldn't adjust very well to the screen. I ended up going
into the kitchen and making up some Chamomile tea. It helped.
I love to
chat. IQC is a lot of fun and I am trying to get all my on-line friends to load
it. Some are perhaps reluctant because they are afraid that I am so enthusiastic
about it, I'll never let them alone once they are on-line.
Michele,
Have a wonderful time in Windsor. A few months ago I put together a 1000
piece puzzle of Windsor Castle. It was a blast. I figure that Her Majesty, the
Queen, was selling the photography rights to the castle so she can fix up the
place after the fire a few years ago. I was only too glad to help her out.
Lena,
Thanks for your kind comments about my web-site. I'll work
on getting that book published so that you may read it in its polished entirety.
Happy writing!
Rhoda
agsousa agsousa@esoterica.pt http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 17:36:16 PST 1999
P. S. I'm afraid she gave up. What can I do for you now, Rachel?
I'd like a word of incentive to S.K.S. PERRY. He didn't manage to have
one of his stories published and felt frustrated last week. But he shouldn't.
His story wasn't probably read, and, if it was, it was not understood. Or
perhaps it was too good for the magazine or publisher he submitted it to. It
could even be a poor story. I don't know. I know, however, that rejected stories
are excellent material for the future and the future is only two or three steps
away. When a story is rejected it should be piled up on a heap of other rejected
stories. Usually thirteen rejected stories make a good book.
HOOTIE:
"les baux esprits se rencontre".
(Isn't there a mistake in the
verb? Where are the French critics and writers to help us here? Please come, oh
descendants of Racine! )
LENA: How could I be discouraged with the
States? I knocked at your door asking you to please give Europe other Faulkners,
Hemingways, Fitzgeralds. I loved your literature very very much when I was
younger and almost all good Portuguese writers of the generation prior to mine
were influenced by your best writers. The French Camus was also influenced by
American literary art, mainly by Hemingway. What happens is that you have the
potential to renew the old flame but are perhaps (I may be wrong or ignorant,
remember) resting on the laurels of a not very distant past.
S.N. ARLY:
Please don't be offended. There's nothing wrong in being a 'man of letters'
(literati is the latin plural of that, I think) and there are very nice
conservatives in this world. Winston Churchill was one of them and he let you
win the war... for us. (Oh, sorry!). Please remember that I am just a poor
foreigner using your language, ignorant of possible local conotations of some
words. If somebody else in this forum was offended because of the 'conservative
literati', please raise your left finger and I will apologize publicly and
shamelessly and for three exact minutes.
By the way, EVERYBODY:
genuineness (and not genuinity or genuiness as I wrote in recent posts)
seems to be the right word. Correct me, if I am wrong again.I love the English
language, really, but it's years since I used it almost fluently. And computers
are not very good writing pads.
THOMAS:
You seem to be a
wonderful person and I remember having read very mature things of yours about
education, if I am not wrong. (I discovered this site only last week). Only
cinema and some theatre get modest subsidies from the Portuguese government. Not
literature. I would not like my novels to get governmental money. This is a poor
country (at least if compared to the States) and the money of the tax payer is
very much needed to education, health and so on. Usually writers here have a
second job.
EDDIE FRENCH:
Art should not be envisaged as a means
to get money but as an end in itself. Art is the only thing we have left to
defeat death. It is the best way to discover and enjoy life as well. I love
literature, of course, otherwise I wouldn't write when there are so many
interesting things around. I love chess, soccer, coke, sleeping, reading
incredible things like the phone directory or the Internet yellow pages.
and I love you all.
Rachel danolson@sprint.ca http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 17:34:46 PST 1999
Rachel
Rachel Allein http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 17:32:47 PST 1999
My daughter was sick and home from school today so
ended up coming to my Karate class where she curled up with the Mulan video and
her blanket. It was pretty funny because the guy leading the class just wanted
to go and plop down with her to watch the show.
Seems it has a lot of
fans adult, teen and child.
Well just thought I'd let you know that I
liked it as you seem to be quite the Mulan Fan.
Hope you get it for your
B-Day. If you don't I imagine you'll head out and pick it up for yourself. HAPPY
BIRTHDAY in advance.
Take care
Rachel
Eddie French eddiefrench@email.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 17:19:50 PST 1999
I forgot to add the title because it is not on the text
file that I cut & pasted from. The working title is:
The Mistakes Men
Meld
Thanks in advance.
Ed
Jai Jai@towersoft.com.au http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 16:15:25 PST 1999
What makes us write? Well I definatly don't follow any
guidlines. It is well my passion is for fiction. So far all the stories I've
writen would fit into style of one of the many mags out there.
I
recieved my second regection wohoo! I've also started writing my novel again
which is nice.
Thomas - I agree about the ICQ chat being addictive,
infact when I read Rhoda's comment about not being able to sleep I fired up ICQ
but she had obviously managed to hit the sack by then.
A pile of
regections and a pillow of dreams
Jai
Allein Lunika@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2823
Wed Feb 3 15:28:40 PST 1999
Groundhog's Day - hmmm, I don't really believe in Groundhog's
Day. I think winter ends when it ends and that's all there is to it.
SKS
- I hope your mother had a happy birthday.
Well I'm out to rent the new
Mulan movie that was just released on video - I'm a Disney fan. What's that you
say? Buy it? Don't be silly, my birthday is on March 5th. Like I'm going to pay
money for something my parents KNOW I want (and since I only want two other
things, I'll probably get it). But I have a free video rental left over from
Christmas, so I think I'll use it - it expires this month anyway.
Well, I'm
just writing for the sake of writing, so I'll stop and let someone else leave a
post.
Au revior (yes, probably spelled wrong).
Allein
Michele michele@sassoonery.demon.co.uk
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 13:57:25 PST 1999
I got lost in the literary/art debate - sorry I've been
up for hours and hours and it's getting kind of late here !
SNArly - no
worries - I spotted a typo on one of my pages today ! Sad that my brain works
faster than my fingers even though I'm quite a fast typist (for an untrained
typist that is !)
I don't mind racing Hayden across Europe - could be
fun !
;-0
Anyway I am going to head for bed as I am tired. You won't
hear from me over the weekend - I'm going to spend the weekend with friends in
Windsor (Berkshire)....
I may get back here tomorrow after I take the
cat to the vet for her cat flu jab...... What's the betting she hates me
tomorrow ?!
G'night y'all !
Michele
Thomas booklink@servtech.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 13:51:42 PST 1999
The talk about starting a story with a first line that you
shouldn't use reminds me of the one story I might have written in my life when I
did not change the first line. Unfortunately, the rest of the story was
miserable.
It has been my experience that the first line, hell, the
first paragraph, or even chapter, quite often do not belong in most of my first
drafts -- even the ones that do not begin with "dark and stormy
night". But I once wrote an experimental piece made up solely of about a
hundred first lines and first paragraphs I had written. I wonder if that would
sell?
Where is that agent's phone number? The one who asked, "got
anything different?"
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 13:35:19 PST 1999
For Rhoda, S.K.S, S.N. Arly, and
everyone else who has seen this: I think the publishing world is suffering from
schizophrenia. I don't know how many times I've seen guidlines that essentially
say, "I want to see this formula, but formulate it in a way I've never seen
before!" Conferences and classes can be the same way: "You have to
include all these little things, but make sure you don't if you can think of a
good reason." It can be confusing at best.
Knowing the
"standard" rules are good, but knowing what works and what doesn't is
better. I like Agsousa's example of writing a story starting with a line that
you're not supposed to use (even if I don't know what it meant, I'll assume it
was the Portugese equivalent of "It was a dark and stormy night...").
The instructive part is that although that started the story, later the story
evolved so that it no longer fit. Knowing what to take out is always as
important as knowing what to put in. And in most cases harder.
Hootie
Lena feylena@hotmail.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 13:10:25 PST 1999
I just had to go into the archives to find my last post. I
leave for a couple of days, and the whole notebook writes a novel together.
Yesch.
Agsousa I am not sure, but if your idea of American Literature is
what makes it onto the (american) bestseller list, I dont blame you for being
pretty damn discouraged with this country. In my opinion, some of the less
famous authors are so much better... I repeat, in my own opinion. I can not
quite figure out what you term a good book. You say that we overemphasis plot,
characters, and dialogue - what does that leave? The language? Describing a
landscape? Like Rhoda, I will not apologize for my love of a well-told story.
Perhaps you should visit the Workbook and read some of the stories
there. I would love to hear your opinion on them. (Im not being sarcastic,
either.)
Rhoda I have read some of Jean Plaidys books. They are decent,
but I do not like her measured way of marching through history. Too steady, too
oh my goodness, we have to make it through this persons life in the span of one
book, not enough tension. Also, Diana Gabeldon... did she write Outlander? I
seem to recall something of the sort...
Well, I started that class in
creative writing. It really sucks. I ended up with a classroom of students who
think creative writing is the easy, blow-off class, and they treat it as such.
There is no discipline, the teacher is an idiot, and our assignments are
pointless. I was considering dropping, but I think I will stay and (making the
best of a bad situation) use the time to concentrate on my writing unlike the
rest of the class and the teacher.
SN Arly I will get out to your
website soon. Sounds great.
Fare thee well,
-Lena
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 12:21:55 PST 1999
In the Round Robin story As Darkness Descends, you
mentioned I could click on the small picture above to get an idea of what the
main characters look like. What picture?
S.K.S. Perry naejin16@hotmail.com
http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 12:14:22 PST 1999
Apparently if you don't conform to MZB's ideas, she has no
qualms about telling you what a no talent hack you are either.
Be Well,
Live Well.
S.N.Arly moobeast@sprintmail.com
http://home.sprintmail.com/~moobeast/
Wed Feb 3 11:29:35 PST 1999
I took one
creative writing course in college and found it too stagnant to try again.
Besides, I don't need to be told how to write.
Perhaps you mistake the
blandness of the publishing world for the goal and aim of the writers. Gee it
would be nice to worry only about the art. But in America that doesn't put food
on the table, and even artists have to eat real food, not just spiritual. So
we're stuck with the options of A) Find another job and have less time for your
art to grow and B) Bend to the whim of the publisher so you can spend your other
free time working on the stuff they'll never print, or will be reluctant to do
so until you have established "A Name" for yourself. I chose option A
a long time ago, and sometimes it sucks. But I have my own style and I don't
play by the rules, which has gotten me into trouble a time or two.
It is
possible that your view has been slanted because you only get to see the kind of
stuff that's in print, not the other stuff that's out there. And now this brings
up a point, perhaps frustrated American authors should try a foreign market that
might be more open to their unique styles.
W. Olivia - I hope to have an
updated version up this afternoon, and it will include more links in both the
Celtic and Writing areas. And THANKS!
Ashling - When you check back to
my site, you should go to The Celtic Compendium. The link should be there this
afternoon. You will find far more info than you could ever need. I did. : )
SKS - for real formula writing, check out Marion Zimmer Bradley's
writing guidelines. Eeeeeeek. What she wants is scary. What she thinks makes up
a good story is equally such.
S.N.Arly
garrycouch garry_h@usa.net http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 10:13:06 PST 1999
and locations originally published by auther since deceased,
when publisher says "get ok from estate", and
estate says
"get ok from publisher". Answer was: ask a
lawyer who deals in
such...good idea, finally found two, neither will respond. Anybody out there
know such a type who WILL respond? (You know how lawyers are who are not hungry,
or are working on ClintonGate !!)
Rhoda rfort@ren.net http://www.angelfire.com/nm/goldenpen
Wed Feb 3 06:54:42 PST 1999
I have this nagging hunch that those who attend writer's
conferences and hold faithfully to all these little rules, which incidently
change ever year or so, will never be highly successful writers. Such a person
might get a few books published, or might even go on to write a string of
mediocre books. However, you do not gain the stature of a Tom Clancy, Danielle
Steele, or a John Grisholm (I know I spelled this wrong) writing what everyone
tells you to write. Though the above writers have many immitators, they started
out doing their own distinct thing. Had they listened to all the
"experts" when they started out, we wouldn't know of them.
Diana Gabeldon is a good example. She broke all the rules by writing a
long, greatly detailed time-travel romance. If you read her work, she doesn't
employ all the short, action verb, wis-bang sentences that every editor says you
must have. Ms. Gabeldon's following is very loyal and most of her fans love her
for the qualities that the experts claim are death to everyone else.
If
you do intend to go for the big arena and write your heart out doing it, be
prepared for much frustration along the way. I heard Nancy Taylor Rosenberg at a
conference once. She got over three hundred rejections on her first published
book. She was still getting rejections on this same manuscript even after it
went through a massive bidding war. Needless to say, she is now extremely
successful doing hopefully what she loves best.
So, S.K.S. and Thomas,
hold onto your dream. Your work might have to clipped or culled a little bit,
but I would keep doing what you believe in.
Happy writing!
Rhoda
Hootie MHooten@csw.L-3com.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 06:41:25 PST 1999
I think
it's telling that even for successful writers, there is the belief among
non-writing family and friends that you aren't really working when you write.
It's an unfair judgement, one that is belied by the majority of postings here.
We pour of heart and souls into our work, struggling to find time and energy for
it, and I think for Americans especially, it would be nice to have all this
effort rewarded with our country's highest honor: a paycheck. That doesn't mean
that we don't want to try new things and stretch our art, but we have to do it
in miniscule steps so that the publishers don't realize what we've done.
Hootie
Thomas booklink@servtech.com http://www.webwitch.com/notebook/Wed
Feb 3 06:11:17 PST 1999
Nice that you are back Eddie. I suppose you got everything
unpacked in the new digs. Right -- no need to answer.
Rhoda and I had a
nice chat last night on ICQ. Much more immediate when we do it that way, but oh
so addictive. I fear maybe her caffeine problem was added to by my prodding
comments. I heard that either Coke or Pepsi is including snippets from bets
sellers in every case of diet drink. Their polls show that those who drink the
stuff like to read. Progress?
Rhoda, I consider writing a top-level
means of communication, and the human condition is its subject. Even when I read
a character-driven novel I want to learn something about the human condition
from it. If I learn nothing I feel cheated -- kind of like eating fast food and
then finding out that all you got from it was a full belly at best and health
problems at worst, but little or no nutrition.
As a top-level means